[00:00:00] Luke: Um,

[00:00:07] I'm not actually going to use the video, but

[00:00:09] this, I have to start off with the like, uh, informed consent stuff for the ethics. Um, so I just have to let you know that I'll just be using the transcript so that's going to be automatically generated by zoom and then I'm going to de-identify everything from that.

[00:00:29] So, um, so I'll protect your identity, your reputation and, and your data. Um, so yeah, I'll identify it and I'll delete anything you don't- like- you want me to delete and I won't make anything to- use anything to make you look bad. Um, and I'll delete the recordings and just keep the transcripts. Um, and yeah, you don't have to answer any questions you don't want to, you can withdraw at any time, you're under no obligation to continue.

[00:01:01] And I just have to let you know the purpose is that I'm trying to understand how people use their phones for communication, particularly instant messaging and how the technology is falling short for- for facilitating natural social interactions. Okay, cool. Um, and yeah. Are you okay with me recording the audio of this?

[00:01:21] Participant 1: Yes.

[00:01:22] Luke: Cool.

[00:01:23] Um, so how much do you instant message? Is it like a very frequent thing you do?

[00:01:33] Participant 1: Yeah, I'd say it's a daily, a daily activity. Um, at the very least I think that my usage of, um, instant messengers, uh, fluctuates from day to day. Um, I think some days I don't, uh, I I'd say I'm anomalous in the fact that some days I don't use it that much at all.

[00:01:53] Um, whereas some days I use it heavily, um, I think I, I'm more, I'm more likely to use it outside of work, work hours and on weekends, um, because I don't use it directly for work. .

[00:02:12] Luke: So you don't have to use it directly for work if you just do in-person communication for work or,

[00:02:18] Participant 1: yeah. So, yeah, in-person communication.

[00:02:20] Um, do a lot of emails, um, uh, do a lot of, um, like video calls, um, Uh, yeah, I mean, some, some email clients feature like, uh, instant messenger feature um, it's rarely used on my behalf. Um, I wouldn't use, I feel like instant messaging is more of a mobile thing rather than a desktop thing. So.

[00:02:55] Luke: So, yeah.

[00:02:56] Okay. So you use instant messenger, more on your phone than on the desktop.

[00:03:00] Participant 1: Yep.

[00:03:02] Luke: And with the email, do you use that more on your desktop than your phone then? Or?

[00:03:06] Participant 1: Yes. Yes.

[00:03:07] Luke: Yes. Okay. Um, um,

[00:03:13] so how long have you been like using instant messengers for like, just roughly,

[00:03:19] Participant 1: roughly since 2009.

[00:03:22] Luke: Yeah, that's pretty specific.

[00:03:27] Participant 1: I created my first Facebook account in 2009, and I was instant messaging shortly after, uh, creating that, um, Yeah.

[00:03:39] Luke: Okay. So what are the, like, say you use Facebook, instant messaging. Anything else?

[00:03:46] Participant 1: Yeah. Yeah. I've used ...like in general. I've used, uh, Snapchat, um, uh, Instagram, um, I've used a app called signal, um, which is a, like a private, like a encrypted messenger.

[00:04:02] Um, I have used ahh WeChat um, once or twice. Um, what else have I used? Oh, like text messages, like MMS, SMS. Um, what else?

[00:04:27] Yeah, I'd say that's the main one I have used MSN back in the day. I never had my own account on that, but I've definitely, definitely that was the O G of, of, you know, instant messaging.

[00:04:38] Luke: Was that before or after the Facebook stuff?

[00:04:40] Participant 1: It was before the Facebook. Yeah. I never had my own account that I'd, I'd used.

[00:04:44] I had had used the messenger before on friends accounts or, you know, people's computers that had it logged in.

[00:04:52] Luke: Yeah.

[00:04:53] So, is that at home or at friends?

[00:04:57] Participant 1: Yeah. Oh, no, sorry. Yeah.I mean at a friend's home

[00:05:00] Luke: Yeah, yeah, at a friend's home so okay,

[00:05:03] Participant 1: Never at my own computer

[00:05:05] Luke: yeah.

[00:05:07] Um, so out of all of those, which ones, the feel, uh, you're most comfortable with or you use the most often that sort of thing?

[00:05:17] Participant 1: Oh yeah. So I use Facebook messenger most often. Um, So, yeah, the reason being is that I feel like it's the most commonly used one, um, throughout my friend group. Um, everybody has a Facebook account and it's easy to find and talk to people directly and quickly on that. Um, it's really simple, easy to use. Um, there's kind of no frills kind of approach to it, or at least it started off that way and they started bringing some more exciting stuff now.

[00:05:45] Um, so yeah, messenger. Yeah, it's definitely my, my mainly used one. Um, recently I've been using signal a lot. Um, uh, again, I've got a few friends that exclusively use that. Um, and that's just another means of, of messaging and I also get a bit of comfort in knowing that it's somewhat more private, um, a lot more secure, um, and.

[00:06:09] I'd say the, my favorite, if I had to say that, if I had to just communicate on one, if I had that choice so the one that I enjoy using the most is Snapchat. Um, yeah, by, by a long shot, um, I, I find it really engaging and, um, I feel like that type of messenger in parti- oh, like miss instant messaging in particular is really broken down, um, or, or gotten messaging as close as it can be to, to talking over a phone for the reason that it really emphasizes when people are live and in the chat with you, um, and, and, and really encourages, encourages interaction. Um, and yeah,

[00:07:00] so I think there's a culture of, um, on, on messaging apps, especially to use the, um, preview function in the notifications to read a message before you engage with it and I think that what that does is it takes you out of the actual conversation. It's like hearing a conversation before you've engaged in it. So you can prepare an answer and that- the process of you preparing an answer is it makes your response less genuine, um, or less in the moment.

[00:07:28] And I think that's what I like about Snapchat is that you don't have time to think about. Uh, you know, w you don't have time to craft a message. When, when someone, someone sends you a message, they see that you have not only received it, but are looking at the message and they get notified every time you start to type a, a letter.

[00:07:51] So I think it puts that pressure on you to, to really, um, You know, react as if you would, as if you were having an in-person conversation or a, or a, a phone conversation. Yeah. Okay. So,

[00:08:03] Luke: uh, Snapchat has the two features, right? It's got the text. Chat and the

[00:08:09] photo chat?

[00:08:11] Participant 1: Yeah. So, yeah. So sorry, I should've clarified, I, I, uh, I was more talking about, um, the, the text chat, referring to those details.

[00:08:20] Um, obviously the, the photo chat, um, is probably still a form of instant messaging, but it's, I, I feel as though it's, um, Oh, I use it less. And, uh, and I don't think it's as it, you know, there's some, there's some parts of it there aren't aren't as, um, what's the word engaging? I mean, it's, it sounds a bit counterintuitive, though like it.

[00:08:47] Luke: No

[00:08:48] Participant 1: it's not as fast, but that's what I'm saying. It's not as fast when, when I'm talking about getting closer to a phone call, um, the image way of chatting is not as fast, whereas the actual text writing way, the traditional messaging way is is very fast and, and, um, yeah,

[00:09:05] Luke: so it's a, the speed is important.

[00:09:08] Participant 1: Speed. Yeah.

[00:09:10] Luke: Um, yep. Okay. So,

[00:09:13] Participant 1: the speed of the the interaction, I mean, I'm not, yeah, speed in like the, the back and forth, it encourages faster, back and forth, and therefore more back and forth.

[00:09:24] Luke: I need to have a look at Snapchat, cause I haven't really used it. So I'm not as familiar with it. Um, That's really interesting. So, uh, how does it show that someone else is present?

[00:09:37] Participant 1: So it has, um, so if you open up a message, um, The couple of things happen. So, um, if you open a message, the person who sent you the message, um, they don't get notified, but unless, unless they're on the screen and a little, um, little square, will go from, from solid to, to just outlined to notify that it's been opened or something's been emptied.

[00:10:06] And, uh, and then once you start to type they will get a direct notification on their phone. Um, so that's the default notification system on Snapchat. So if you see a message and you type the word, "the" they'll get they'll be notified that you are you're beginning, like you're beginning to type. And if you cancel it out, that notification would drop away.

[00:10:31] And then if you start up again, they'll be notified again. So they can really be aware of how often you are. Typing and backing out of it also, if they are inside the message. So if they are within, if they're looking at the conversation at the same time that you're typing it, they have a little emoji or a little character.

[00:10:50] That's like a little caricature of yourself, usually that is present. And it looks as though it's kind of peeping on you. If that makes sense. Like it's there. I, when they exit it, their character leaves the room as well. So

[00:11:05] Luke: yeah.

[00:11:07] Participant 1: Um, so that, so that's, that's how they, they know when they've received or like when you, that's how you know that someone has seen your message and how they know that you're typing a message back.

[00:11:20] Luke: How does it feel when you see someone else is in the message with you?

[00:11:27] Participant 1: I think it depends who you're talking to, but, uh, I think that, um, It's like I said before, it really simulates a conversation or a phone conversation. Um, I said a phone conversation instead of in-person conversation. Cause, cause obviously you can't see- there's no non-verbal communication that can be transferred via Snapchat or phone call.

[00:11:53] And that's why I think they're probably more similar to the phone call and the messenger. Um, so yeah, no, I think it, it, it gives me a sense of urgency. Um, and it makes me, it makes me want to react. Um, w w and w makes me want to message with what my gut has to tell me or what I immediately immediately think makes me want to not se- second guess what I said.

[00:12:21] Luke: Okay. So is that a good thing or a bad thing, or?

[00:12:24] Participant 1: I think it's a really good thing. Um, cause I think that that's, it's, it's more natural. Um, and it's, and it's more honest I think um, and, and in, and like I said before, it depends on who you talking to, but I think when you're having a conversation with your friends, um, and it's, you know, not in business setting or you might be having a conversation with a crush or something like that.

[00:12:44] I think that's, that's where you can really understand someone's personality more, or who someone is, is, is who they are off the- off the cuff. And in those moments where they don't think, you know, they're, they're, they're just being themselves. Um, as opposed to, you know, someone crafting a crafting, a message, um, that, that, that, that they've thought about, and they've kind of researched in their own brain.

[00:13:13] Luke: Okay. So, um, then you're saying that Snapchat is much more for social interaction with friends and rather than business

[00:13:23] Participant 1: yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. I think that, I think, yeah, I think it's, you need to, I couldn't see it working well in a, in a commercial setting, um, at all, where you, where you have to be careful about, um, what, where you don't know people that, that.

[00:13:40] Well, or you don't want to get to know them in a personal manner. I think that's where you really need to tread a bit more lightly and make sure that you're, you're, um, a bit more responsible for what you talk about, what you say.

[00:13:52] Um, also one thing I didn't mention was that, um, Snapchat has a couple of features in terms of recording the messages too. So the default setting is for the message once it's read, um, you know, it only lasts a couple of minutes and then it disappears.

[00:14:10] If you don't reply to it immediately, there's a chance that the message disappears. And then you forget what they said. Therefore, you can't reply. So that also encourages yourself to reply back to it.

[00:14:23] Um, there is a feature where you can change it to 24 hours or, or, or you can press buttons to keep parts of the conversation. But I think it, it's kind of nice to know that just like a real conversation in real life. Once you say. Something, the, the storage of that conversation is in people's brains, not on a memory card.

[00:14:48] So I guess it helps me to get the thought of saying something wrong. There's no, if you said something embarrassing or you deal with it in real time and, and you can be comfortable and forget about that weird thing you said, because there's not this physical reminder of you mistaking you know, a maths question or something like that, you know, there's no record- well there is a record, but it's not a sort of physical record that people can refer to which is nice.

[00:15:19] Luke: That's like a privacy thing or,

[00:15:22] Participant 1: yeah, it's definitely a privacy thing. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:28] Luke: Yeah. So it matches a real conversation

[00:15:31] Participant 1: It exasperates or what's the word exasperates probably the wrong word. It

[00:15:37] Luke: exacerbates

[00:15:38] Participant 1: um, honesty. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's that's what I think it does.

[00:15:44] Luke: Okay. That's good to know. So is this, um, when does it disappear from when you send it off from when they open it?

[00:15:55] Participant 1: So when you send it, uh, like on the default settings, so you send the message, they open it and read it.

[00:16:02] I'm pretty, I'm pretty sure it, it would disappear when they leave the conversation or like within a minute or so of leaving in conversation. Um, so it's, it's very temporary. You might even be able to set time limits. I'm not sure I haven't explored that.

[00:16:18] Luke: And you mentioned. Uh, other, apps you can read the message before you've shown the other person that you've read it whereas on Snapchat you don't have that option?

[00:16:30] Participant 1: You don't know that option whatsoever. Um,

[00:16:36] Luke: is are there times on Snapchat where you would like to be able to do that?

[00:16:46] Participant 1: The answer is yes. But, um, but it's only it's it's, it's out of, um, Insecurity. It's not so much I, in hindsight, but I liked, I liked the challenge of, of having to respond on the cuff. Um, and that's because I'm, you know, I'm sure everybody at times can be, especially when, you know, if they're talking to a crush or something like that, they want to, they don't.

[00:17:13] They want to make sure they're not stuffing things up, like you, there's going to be a certain level of worry about it. And, um, so of course there's times where I go. I wish I can see the message. So got a bit more time to, you know, make sure I don't say something dumb, but the whole process of that is, is, um, is the exciting part.

[00:17:39] Luke: I had a question,

[00:17:42] Participant 1: I guess, I guess also just to reinforce maybe when you're talking to your friends, um, sometimes you're, you're in this weird kind of gray zone where you're, you're, you're not busy enough to, sorry you're, you're too busy to engage in a proper, proper conversation, but, um,

[00:18:05] But you, you, you, you, but you can also, you also have the time to, to read what they say and, and, um, and, and to see what's going on. So I think, like, for an example, for example, if, if it's an alert of some sort like, oh, hey you've left the iron on at home, or, Hey, can you please do this or that, like the kind of simple little communication things, it's, it's kind of.

[00:18:26] Helpful to be able to quickly see that or have a preview of it. So, you know, I think, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, it definitely, um, Def definitely is times. I think there's a, there's a clear. As I'm talking, there's a clear distinction between like usage scenarios, where you might use one that can let you- an instant messenger that lets you preview text versus ones that, um, don't let you preview.

[00:18:57] Luke: Yeah. So, um, part of what I'm interested in is how do you try to understand the other person through the messages. Um, and particularly in terms of the state of mind, they're in, like, you're talking about that gray zone where you're sort of available, but you're not quite available for a full on conversation.

[00:19:26] Um, so maybe you're trying to message someone. And, uh, how do you know if they're in that gray zone or if they're available or if they're not available, how do you go about considering that? Do you, well,

[00:19:44] Participant 1: I think that it's, it's quite hard to know. Um, I mean, Normally. So like in, in that, in that gray zone that I was talking about a, for myself in that zone at work a lot where I have the capability to respond to messages, it's not like I would be in trouble for responding to one message or, you know, um, reading a message or something.

[00:20:07] It's not like I'm too busy and physically engaged with something where I can't, um, But at the same time, it's, it's, you know, I don't want to disrupt my working patterns and I don't want to, um, you know, stop, stop what I'm doing. So it's that, that's where I get into that gray zone and then judging or trying to gauge how other people, where they are.

[00:20:29] I'd say that I wouldn't expect someone. If I knew that they, that they had a job. Or like if they had some like if they were going to uni or if they had some sort of responsibility during a certain period of the day, wouldn't expect a, a, um, full on conversation. And in those times, but you never know. So I feel like it's always a bit of a guess where you kind of just throw out a message and if someone responds a bit quicker and then, you know, oh yeah.

[00:21:00] Maybe they do have some time to, or to, to chat or if it's a bit slower then you, you think, oh, maybe they're preoccupied. Um, maybe they're in that weird spot. Um, it's, it's, it's almost impossible to know though. Um, I feel like that, you know, say on messenger, there's an, there's an active. The thing says active or inactive and tells you how long they've been like active and inactive for work that live on a chat now.

[00:21:29] But I just, I just think that, yeah, people just because people have engaged with their social, like with social media or their messenger doesn't mean that they're in the capacity to have a conversation. Um, Yeah. So short answer is I, I don't know. I don't, I just, I just whenever I have a reason to message, message, someone I'll message them and just let it, let it happen.

[00:21:56] Whether or not it's a message that goes over an hour. With multiple messages or whether or not it goes over a couple of days with a few messages in between. Um, it just really depends on everybody's schedules and the nature of the topic of the conversation or the reason for the conversation or the message.

[00:22:15] Luke: Yep. Yep.

[00:22:17] Um,

[00:22:18] Participant 1: did I answer that question?

[00:22:19] Luke: That's right. That's, that's, uh, you've encapsulated exactly what I'm trying to help solve, which is that issue of not being sure. Um, the situation on the other end. Um, so your, your solution is to just send them a message and see how they respond to it. Um, does that, do you ever not send someone a message because you think they're busy or.

[00:22:48] Participant 1: Maybe it's late at night or

[00:22:54] my laptop just got all slow. And

[00:22:58] Luke: I think it's my internet breaking up. But, um, I was saying, this is the wonders of doing this over the internet. Um, I was saying that, um, have there ever been times where you haven't sent someone a message because you think they're not available

[00:23:20] Participant 1: yeah.

[00:23:22] Luke: Can you walk me through the situation where that's happened?

[00:23:29] Participant 1: Yeah. Sure.

[00:23:29] Um, so, um, for example, I, uh, I've, I've had, um, questions, um, or questions or things I needed to know from my, my dad, um, in regards to, car registration and bills and, and things. And I know. Um, that messaging him while he's working. So between say five o'clock and nine o'clock. Um, I know, I know that the chances of him seeing the message and returning it in any sort of timely matter is pretty low. So I tend to just not even send the message at all. Um, and then I'll I'll either call him the next day or, uh, um, just ringing him after cause looking for a more immediate response. So that's so it's, so it's less. So I feel like um conversational when I just want to talk and catch up.

[00:24:31] I would send a message, even if I thought he was busy. Um, but, but if I needed to know information or if there was something that had some sort of urgency, that's when I, I would hold back a message or, or, um, or I try to plan it a bit more meticulously.

[00:24:49] Luke: Yup.

[00:24:53] That makes sense. So,

[00:24:55] Participant 1: I mean, I could always just leave it there and wait for them to respond, but it's sometimes when you know that you do, like, when you know someone, sometimes you just feel like you don't want to interrupt someone. That's what you like, you know, you could leave a message there and, um, there's a chance I could get back to you while they're, while you know, they're busy, but sometimes you just don't want to do that.

[00:25:16] You sometimes you just want to let someone do their thing and then hit them up after.

[00:25:20] Luke: Yeah. Um,

[00:25:26] so have you ever received a like message or notification at a time where it's inconvenient for you and you felt like you need to respond?

[00:25:41] I don't know if my internet broke up again.

[00:25:47] Participant 1: Sorry. Could you say that again?

[00:25:50] Luke: I was just saying, um, so you, you don't want to message other, uh, other people when you think they're busy, have you ever been messaged when your busy.

[00:26:03] Participant 1: Yeah. Yeah. I'd definitely, definitely been, um, message when I'm busy. Um, not just at work, but say I'm, um, the gathering or, uh, a function, not function, but like social events that, that requires me or sporting, then that requires me to be close to a hundred. percent, you know in person and there's not many chances for me to, to drop off my, to my phone.

[00:26:29] So obviously it'd be in my pocket and I'll know the messages there. I might see a message preview, but my ability to, to shut down a current conversation or, or to, to, um, to leave that social circle or something. Um, and then go and engage in something else or reply to it's pretty, pretty hard. And the chances of me doing that is pretty low unless it was urgent.

[00:26:51] Yup. Yup.

[00:26:53] Luke: Yup. So how does it affect it if it's a Snapchat message versus a Facebook message?

[00:27:02] Participant 1: Yeah, that's that's the issue is, um, I feel like the quality of. So, yeah, so I, I feel like I, if it was a Snapchat message, I wouldn't go, I wouldn't even, I wouldn't even read it. I don't, I don't think that I'd even like, if I, if I was busy, I wouldn't even slightly give it a.

[00:27:25] Uh, read, um, like I said before, the chance of it dropping away and me forgetting about what it is, um, it's also a chance of sending a signal to someone that I'm actively not responding to them, or I'm neglecting a message, which I don't think that's even if it's honest, it's, it's never, never a good signal to receive from someone else.

[00:27:46] I think though, it's never a positive signalthat's what I'm trying to say.

[00:27:52] Luke: You mean that when you read it and then you don't reply to it, you're sending them a signal that...

[00:27:56] Participant 1: Reply, Yeah. It's just sending me a signal that you, you don't, you feel as though something else is more important to do or at that time, I even, even though like, like I said, it's, it's, I wouldn't say it's positive.

[00:28:15] It's it can be neutral because someone can be, oh yeah. He's, he's seen it and he's busy, but then some people can take it the wrong way and go, oh, he's shunning me or he's ignoring me, ghosting me. Um, whereas yeah, messenger, I think that that's where the preview comes in nicely is that, um, you know, you can gauge that quicker, but, um, Yeah, I think then if I was to reply on a, if I were to open up a Snapchat message and reply on that, then it would be, um, it would be as less it'd be, should probably be more short, more short, or I would I be forced to tell someone that I'm busy

[00:28:54] whereas on messenger, I'll never tell someone that I- like the process of telling someone you're busy is not replying, whereas on Snapchat, you'd actually have to be like, Hey, I'm busy. I'll reply later.

[00:29:10] Um,

[00:29:14] Luke: so do you ever feel the pressure to respond to that then? If you get a message when you're busy, do you feel like you have to respond to it sometimes.

[00:29:32] Participant 1: Just on any platform form, uh?

[00:29:34] Luke: yeah. One on either of them really. I mean, you said you don't preview the Snapchat ones.

[00:29:40] Participant 1: I definitely, I think that a lot of messages, um, the nature or messages give you gives you a small feeling of I should respond to this. Um, and I think that it's, you've got to, yeah, you're constantly making decisions on whether or not you will, or you won't or, and, and yeah, obviously that it's all just affected by what you're doing at the time, but then also.

[00:30:03] About the nature of the relationship with the person. Um, if it's, if it's a good friend of yours or you, you know, you know, you know, someone that you you're confident that they know how you operate or what you're doing, then, um, then you, you feel more comfortable with not the, the pressure of actually responding when you can't is a lot lower, because you feel like that, that they have got the capacity to understand that you can't message back at that time.

[00:30:28] Whereas if it's someone unknown and then yeah, the pressure is higher because you're like, well, this person doesn't know me yet. Um, I don't think they understand, you know, But even, yeah, I think, yeah, the answer is yes. Yeah. You do everybody. I think everybody would feel a little bit of pressure, no matter who the person is, messaging them to respond.

[00:30:50] There's that's the nature of it. It's a, it's a it's, it's a, uh, it's communicating it's um, it's I feel it's, it just feels unhuman to, to not respond to someone or not respond to something. Yeah. Um,

[00:31:08] Luke: So you mentioned that the email, um, that you use emails for business communication, more than instant messaging.

[00:31:16] Participant 1: Yeah.

[00:31:18] Luke: Um, is there any particular reason, like you did mention that the desktop versus mobile aspect where you use the email or on the desktop, is that the main reason? Like if you had Facebook messenger on your desktop computer, would you, why would you not use that instead of email with your business colleagues?

[00:31:43] Participant 1: So I, I, I think the, the joy of email is that it's kind of. It's like a dated technology that kind of suits the working lifestyle for the reason that it takes longer to write an email. So when you do write an email, it's going to be something important. It kind of means that it, you, you're going to think twice before writing it.

[00:32:06] Um, you can think a bit more about it, um, because essentially everybody's time, is there the biggest commodity and, uh, you know, If you're going to invest time in writing an email to somebody, then it's going to be like a good question or a worthy response. It kind of slows down the communication makes it less frequent, but makes it more, more decision orientated and meaningful sometimes.

[00:32:33] Um, and it also prevents you from getting distracted as easily as it does messenger. Um, and. Yeah. So I, I just, I just think that if Facebook messenger was used for, for work or a messaging was used in a more commercial setting, then people, I think people would have a tendency, um, especially between like low, lower level workers and management level workers, just to, just to be using it too often and not thinking for themselves

[00:33:07] um, and, and, and make it harder for someone. I think that in a business environment, responding to people, um, probably there's the pressure of responding to a person that's related to your job is much higher than a friend, um, because you're literally being paid to do it. So if someone had the pressure of responding instantly by a messenger, um, in a business setting, I think that it'd cause all sorts of havoc on your, on your productivity, and your workflow, because, you know, You need to, you need to prioritize your time and segment it.

[00:33:41] And if that pressure's there to to reply to an instant messenger. And as I'm saying this, I don't, I feel like, ah, I don't know. I'm not sure why, but emails are way easier to ignore

[00:33:59] and it could com- it could be completely because there's no read receipts on emails or there is, but there's, most people don't have them.

[00:34:12] Luke: Okay. Yeah. Okay. I didn't realize that they were - it's possible to have read receipts on emails.

[00:34:19] Participant 1: Yeah. It's a, the only reason I know that is because obviously working in marketing and doing a bit of email marketing there's programs that you can get that whenever someone opens up your email, it alerts you and then it will like in like, what's the word?

[00:34:38] It can show you a like, live, live results on how people are interacting with your email so they can send you an email or tell you when they open it, when they click on something, um, on, on certain buttons. And when they did it, how, like how long after you sent the email, they did it. So, um, yeah.

[00:34:56] Luke: Okay. That's interesting.

[00:34:58] Um, so that's even when they just open the email, it's not even when they click on anything inside of.

[00:35:05] Participant 1: Yeah. When as soon as I open it, you can, you can be notified that that person has opened up your email.

[00:35:11] Luke: But, um, okay. So you're saying there's, there's a, it's easier to ignore an email because there's not as much time pressure as for an instant message.

[00:35:24] Participant 1: Yeah, well, there's no real way of someone. I mean, even though you can, on the most part, there is not, there's no way for people to know that you've opened up the message, so there's time and, and it, and it takes longer to, to write as well. Like if you've got to use certain formalities and

[00:35:44] Luke: yeah, so people generally will write longer messages in emails than they will on for instance, that Facebook messenger?

[00:35:53] Participant 1: Yeah.

[00:35:55] Luke: Um, and you said people get distracted more easily on instant messenger than over email?

[00:36:05] Participant 1: Yeah. Cause I think the barrier to communication is lower on an instant messenger. Um, and it's more like a con- like more like a phone conversation. Um, So therefore it demands more urgency and it demands a bigger pressure to respond.

[00:36:27] Luke: Um, I'm aware that I'm taking up a fair bit of time.

[00:36:32] Um, I think like I could probably just do

[00:36:36] Participant 1: Do you want to carry this over on messenger?

[00:36:39] Luke: Haha, maybe email.

[00:36:42] Participant 1: Snapchat!

[00:36:45] Luke: Yeah. There's a lot. There's a lot that could be done in this space. Um, so it's hard for me. Sort of narrow down too much, um, especially because it's really interesting to see how other people, um, deal with these things, because it seems like it's on a pretty individual basis. Like you're saying you have to sort of understand other people and their particular habits and the way they react to messages when they're busy or, um,

[00:37:22] Participant 1: Yeah, it's interesting.

[00:37:26] Luke: Sorry, you go.

[00:37:26] Participant 1: Oh I was gonna say it's interesting you say that because I find, uh, you know, when I've talked to a lot of people about messaging, I find... I find that for me personally, messages are a bigger burden than to me than most people in terms of, I feel a lot more pressure on a message than some people.

[00:37:49] I know some people that feel absolutely no pressure at all on messages. So they don't not only do they have a pressure to respond, but they like, they don't, they don't feel pressure, pressure to respond and they don't. Um, they don't worry about what that they they or how they message, the way that they've communicated is consistent across all mediums.

[00:38:11] Whereas I don't think it's consistent. I don't think I'm consistent with the way. I think I'm a much more formal and well thought out and longer via email, um, Snapchat is more off the cuff and then Facebook's uh kind of in-between that, uh, I think that I've definitely come across people that are very consistent across all of them.

[00:38:31] Um, so I do, I do agree that it's very, it's extremely individual. Um,

[00:38:40] Luke: how does that affect it? Does that make it more difficult or easier or, um,

[00:38:49] Let me rephrase that, maybe. It's a very individual thing, but you also have these different ways of communicating with people, right? You could email them, or you could send them a message on Facebook messenger, or you could send them a Snapchat. Does that, um, help you solve that issue at all? Do you, would you choose to send someone a message on Snapchat versus Facebook messenger, for example, because of the differences?

[00:39:26] Participant 1: So are you saying, would I choose a different platform depending on the person or the situation?

[00:39:32] Luke: No, I'm saying. If you want it to message the same person, uh, this one particular person, would you choose a different platform? Um, depending on how you wanted the conversation to go, like, if you didn't want them to be able to read your message without responding to you without you knowing, would you send it to them on Snapchat, sort of thing, is that how it works or is that missing something?

[00:40:02] Participant 1: Um,

[00:40:08] No, I think it's.

[00:40:15] I don't know. I would say that I would say that like, and I guess it depends on the type of situation. Yeah, yeah. So, yes. Yeah. Like I would, I would, if I wanted to have a fun and exciting conversation with someone, um, you know, discreetly more discreetly than a phone call or a video call then I'd choose Snapchat.

[00:40:38] And then if I wanted to. Be more direct and informational, or more serious, then I'd probably choose messenger, but umm not exclusively. Like I still have fun conversations on messenger as well. Um, I just don't think it encourages it as much as the Snapchat does. Um,

[00:41:01] Luke: do you have.

[00:41:05] I guess I sort of assumed in that question that you have the same people that you were talking to over Snapchat as over Facebook messenger.

[00:41:16] Participant 1: Yeah. I mean, sure. There's crossover, but it's a little bit different. Yeah.

[00:41:21] Luke: So it's, um, most, most of the people are sort of separated and there's only a few who are share both or.

[00:41:37] Um,

[00:41:43] Yeah, that's alright. Um, I think that's, I think that's good. I, I could probably keep going, but I do need to figure things out a bit more first before I ask any more questions. Cause there's a lot of other things . Thanks very much.

[00:00:00] Luke: Cool. Um, so yeah, welcome to the, my, um, so yeah, I have to do the ethics thing at the beginning. So I have to say that I'm just doing research to figure out the disruptiveness of instant message notifications and how to make it a bit better. Um, less disruptive and more in tune with like the conversation, I guess.

[00:00:34] So you don't want to interrupt people in a conversation and you don't want to, um, unless it's really important information, that sort of stuff. Yeah. Uh, uh, yes, I have to say I'll, de-identify the information. So.

[00:01:15] Uh, yeah, so I'm going to de-identify information. So your name won't be in any of it. Any other names or anything that's identifying, I'll remove and I'll delete all the audio stuff. I'll just have the transcripts and I can't use it to, um, negatively reflect your, uh, um, S like, what is it standing in the community?

[00:01:45] Like I have to basically, I can't use. In the defamatory way. Yeah. Um,

[00:01:56] and, uh, cause cause there's one other thing I think I might get the printed thing.

[00:02:07] Um, yeah. And you can back out anytime you want and delete anything that you ask me to. Um, and yeah. You're you said you're okay with me. Recording audio. Cool.

[00:02:22] Participant 2: Yeah, no worries..

[00:02:23] Luke: Cool. Um, so yeah. How much do you use, like instant messaging on your phone? Is it a regular thing?

[00:02:32] Participant 2: Yeah, pretty regular. Yeah.

[00:02:33] Luke: Yeah.

[00:02:34] Participant 2: Yeah. Regular.

[00:02:35] Luke: Is it like how many times a week? Every day?

[00:02:39] Participant 2: Every day. Definitely.

[00:02:41] Luke: Yeah. Um, how long have you been using instant messaging services? That could be anything from SMS to Facebook or

[00:02:52] Participant 2: well, there was MSN back in that day. That's um, back ... God...

[00:03:02] Luke: Just roughly.

[00:03:02] Participant 2: Yeah, it would be

[00:03:04] Luke: since like two-thousand...

[00:03:06] Participant 2: Yeah. Since like 2003 or something like that, 2003, 2004 or something like that.

[00:03:13] I think so.

[00:03:14] Luke: Yeah, about that time, it doesn't- it doesn't matter too much exactly when, but yeah, that seems about right. Um, and in terms of what you use now, do you have one preferred method of communication? Do you use multiple different services?

[00:03:31] Participant 2: Use multiple different rooms since WhatsApp and Facebook messenger.

[00:03:35] Luke: Yeah.

[00:03:36] Participant 2: Yeah.

[00:03:37] Luke: Um, and are there any that you used to use that you don't use anymore?

[00:03:44] Participant 2: Um, I think that was Snapchat had a messenger thing. I don't realy use that. Yeah. I don't really use that, and there's obviously all the old ones.like MSN which I used a long time ago.

[00:03:57] Luke: Yeah.

[00:03:58] Participant 2: I don't think there's been any other ones. Those are the main two something I always use.

[00:04:03] Luke: Yeah. Um, and yeah, if the ones that you do use, you said WhatsApp and Facebook messenger are the two main ones. Um, which do you prefer?

[00:04:15] Participant 2: I think WhatsApp just cause it's a bit more simple and the fact that it's just removed from, you know what I mean? It's just a messenger. It's not connected -

[00:04:25] Luke: Okay.

[00:04:25] Participant 2: -to Facebook, like the other one.

[00:04:28] And it used to actually, I think it's going out of favor now because, um, you don't have as much privacy on there as you used to I think you had to, in the latest update or something you had- I think maybe Facebook owns it now or something..

[00:04:42] Luke: Yeah. Um, okay, so this is the privacy aspect is the, and also just the fact it's just a messenger.

[00:04:50] Participant 2: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:04:51] Luke: So about- what about it being connected to Facebook is off-putting

[00:04:57] Participant 2: um,

[00:05:03] I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

[00:05:05] Luke: Just the general vibe?

[00:05:06] Participant 2: Just the fact that you're linked to, I guess you're just linked to that social media aspect, whereas WhatsApp, you're not really, it's just purely there for the messenger and sort of the layout of it. It's just, I find a little bit more straightforward and more user friendly, I think.

[00:05:23] Luke: Yeah. Um, so, um, I've got one here.

[00:05:30] So in terms of who you text, is it oh, sorry. Who you message on these things? Is it, um, strictly friends or is it work and friends or is it like, how does it

[00:05:46] Participant 2: Pretty much just strictly friends

[00:05:48] Luke: mm

[00:05:49] Participant 2: really on that. Yeah.

[00:05:49] Luke: Yeah.

[00:05:50] Participant 2: Just use, yeah, use the phone for...

[00:05:53] Luke: Just use the phone for-

[00:05:53] Participant 2: for all the business stuff.

[00:05:54] Yeah. phone messenger for work-related stuff. Yeah.

[00:05:59] Luke: Um, and how do you feel about the like on WhatsApp?

[00:06:05] They have the read receipts. So you can tell when someone's read your message.

[00:06:11] Participant 2: Um, that is, yeah, I think that's, I think that's good.

[00:06:16] Luke: Yeah.

[00:06:16] Participant 2: Yeah. I think that's probably good. At least you can know that they've read it anyway. And they haven't- why the hell they're not getting back to you or whatever haha.

[00:06:27] Luke: Yeah. Okay. Yep. That's helpful. And they also have the, um, I don't know if it's on WhatsApp, but I know it's on Facebook messenger, the last active.

[00:06:39] Participant 2: Oh, I find that a bit. That can be handy, but I kind of find it a little bit strange as well at the same time. I dunno. '

[00:06:50] Luke: cause it. Um, does it help you to understand what the other person is doing?

[00:06:57] Participant 2: Yeah. I think sometimes it says, you know, someone hasn't- if they haven't responded they haven't been active for like four hours or something. I guess they're just busy, you know,cause if they're active, it's like why the hell haven't you messaged me back, but still sometimes people can still be active. I don't know. I don't know if it's, I don't know how well it works,

[00:07:16] Luke: so it's not clear, like whether it's actually representing how active they actually are.

[00:07:22] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:23] Participant 2: But sometimes. It gives you sort of an idea.

[00:07:27] Luke: Um, do you think about other people seeing the last active time for you when you're on their messengers? Like, does that come to your mind at all?

[00:07:40] Participant 2: No, not really. Except for the only thing is really in the context of them probably thinking why I haven't messaged back.

[00:07:47] And then at least they probably know that I haven't been active. I guess, but not, not really.

[00:07:55] Luke: And um, with the messages on WhatsApp and on Facebook messenger, you can see a preview of what the message is. Do you make use of that at all?

[00:08:10] Participant 2: Preview of the...

[00:08:10] Luke: Like when you get a notification

[00:08:13] Participant 2: Ohhhh

[00:08:13] Luke: has like the name and the start of the message.

[00:08:16] Participant 2: Yeah. I do find that useful because at least I can sort of

[00:08:21] just get a flash of what it might be about because you know,

[00:08:25] because if it's something urgent or something that might be urgent I'm gonna have to look at it, yeah, it is sort of handy.

[00:08:32] Luke: And, um, do you ever not respond to a message after reading that initial, um, preview of it? I guess like, do you not open it up? Do you just leave the notification there or is it just an easy way?

[00:08:51] Participant 2: Um, I guess in some cases I would yeah. In some cases.

[00:08:58] Luke: Yeah. Cool. Um, yeah, so that, that's basically the availability stuff.

[00:09:05] Cause that's one of the things I'm looking at is how do you guess when someone's available? Um, and the shortcomings of the current options, there's read receipts and there's, um, last online things they're- they're good, but it's also, like you said, it's a bit of a hit and miss sort of thing. Um, at least with the read thing, like if someone's read your message, you can see it that's pretty clear, but because you can see the preview of their message, um, because someone else can see the preview of your message.

[00:09:38] They can just see what's in the message without actually opening it.

[00:09:41] Participant 2: Yeah.

[00:09:45] Luke: Yeah. I don't know. I guess it doesn't seem like that's too much of a factor in the way you use it. Is that right?

[00:09:55] Participant 2: Yeah.

[00:09:55] Luke: Yeah.

[00:09:56] Yeah, not really, yeah.

[00:09:57] Um, and when you're sending a message to someone, do you think about if they're like you can, if you, how disruptive your message might be?

[00:10:12] Participant 2: Um,

[00:10:16] most of the time, not really. I don't think so. I don't think so. Most of the time, I don't know, just cause I'm more used to just getting, I dunno, messages and calls at work or whatever and just sort of used to it. So maybe, I don't know. I don't think about that so much because I'm just,

[00:10:35] yeah,

[00:10:36] Luke: no, fair enough. That's good. So other people will message you just whenever as well.

[00:10:41] Participant 2: Yeah,

[00:10:42] Luke: yeah,

[00:10:42] Participant 2: yeah,

[00:10:43] -yeah. Um, more so if I'm calling someone, definitely. I'm also conscious of that.

[00:10:48] Luke: Yeah. Okay. Um, okay. So also, I guess, involved with this is emails, um, do you email people very much?

[00:11:02] Participant 2: Um, yeah, a bit, quite a bit for work. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:07] Luke: And, um, so you- for work you mainly call people and email them.

[00:11:13] Participant 2: Yeah.

[00:11:14] Luke: What's the difference between an email and a call?

[00:11:16] Like what would go in one and not the other, like what would make you want to call someone over email them?

[00:11:21] Participant 2: Oh, just if I wanted something to happen straight, straight away, if you're emailing someone, it might not happen for a week or you might not even get a response.

[00:11:33] Luke: Yeah. Okay.

[00:11:34] Participant 2: Depending on what the people are like with their emails.

[00:11:38] Luke: Yeah. Um,

[00:11:47] Hm. Yeah. Okay. I'm just trying to think about how I'm going to narrow the focus a bit at the moment cause, um, there's like a few different directions. I could go with things.

[00:12:05] And it's not entirely clear, which one is going to be the most useful. I might just have to go with one of them and see, um, so I guess, uh, in terms of messaging people, what would you think if you could have the option to message someone without making a notification on their phone?

[00:12:30] Participant 2: I suppose. Yeah, that could be an idea at least if you me- yeah. You're messaging someone at some hours that's probably a bit late and you still want to message them, but you know, and just at least want to send it or at least get them to get it, I guess at some point that could be handy.

[00:12:48] Luke: Okay. Um, and are there any times where you think that that would have been handy for someone else to have done for you?

[00:12:56] Like they've sent a message and you think they didn't need to notify you.

[00:13:05] Participant 2: Not really. Not really. Cause I don't. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think so. It doesn't really bother me-

[00:13:13] Luke: yeah.

[00:13:13] Participant 2: -too much, hey.

[00:13:14] Luke: Yeah. So you don't get anything that wakes you up in the middle of the night or.

[00:13:18] Participant 2: No, no, no I don't have anything like that.

[00:13:20] Luke: You don't get any messages during the day while you're at work at all?

[00:13:24] Participant 2: Yeah.

[00:13:25] Luke: Does that not interrupt things?

[00:13:29] Participant 2: Uh, yeah, it does. It does. Can interrupt things. Usually messages I just try and keep things brief. It's definitely more phone calls that, because at least with a message. You can just quickly message someone back or you don't have to message someone back straight away. I'd sort of rather read it for my own sake in case it is... Just cause I have needy clients freak out about small things, I guess.

[00:13:56] Luke: Okay,

[00:13:56] Participant 2: but it's definitely more so phone calls that when someone's talking to you, you know, on the job someone, else's talk, trying to talk to you for 10 minutes on the phone or something.

[00:14:04] Luke: Um, so that's disruptive when someone's on the phone and they won't stop talking to you and it would have been better if they just sent you a message.

[00:14:12] Participant 2: Yeah.

[00:14:12] Luke: Yeah. Um, so at work, the clients will send you messages on like texts and just texts.

[00:14:21] Participant 2: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:25] Luke: Okay. So did you prefer to call them back? You don't like texting them back?

[00:14:29] Participant 2: Oh, it

[00:14:30] depends on, depends on what it is. If it's something I actually want to discuss in detailI like calling them. So there's nothing gets sort of misconstrued in a message a bit.

[00:14:39] If it's something pretty straightforward, they're just messaging. Yeah. I'd rather just message.

[00:14:48] Luke: Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

[00:14:53] Um,

[00:14:59] okay. So sometimes the messages can be disruptive when you have like a needy client who's, um, messaging you too often, or ...?

[00:15:15] Participant 2: Yeah, probably. Yeah, messaging too often. Or messaging me about things that don't really matter at all, you know?

[00:15:23] Luke: Yeah.

[00:15:24] Participant 2: But yeah, I don't really have much, uh, I don't really have much of that. No, most of them pretty good hey

[00:15:32] Luke: um, okay. Well that's good. So the ones who are pretty good, do they message at bad times or?

[00:15:41] Participant 2: Um, not really. I don't think so. I mean, yeah, probably as time goes on. I'm getting less tolerant of that sort of stuff and wanting to, you know what I mean, it'd be better just to be like, message me at only like work hours ... most of the time I don't really mind, you know, it's all good.

[00:16:08] Luke: So, um, what's the difference between you've already covered the difference between a text message and a phone call. But is there much of a difference between a phone call and like a face-to-face conversation with the clients? Is it easier for them to, um, get their message across face to face?

[00:16:34] Participant 2: I think so.

[00:16:35] It's more so for me getting my messages, I'm a huge fan of ... I've definitely got better last couple of years, but still would rather, depending on what it is, you know. If it's something important, I'd much rather talk to someone face to face. Also there's some people on the phone, look, I have one client it's like, it's just so quiet.

[00:16:58] I put him on speaker phone. It's like up to my ears. I still can't hear what he's trying to say so.

[00:17:07] Luke: Yeah. Okay. So, um,

[00:17:15] I'm trying to figure out, I guess, whether it would be possible to have a mess, instant message conversation. That's more like a face-to-face conversation than even a phone conversation is. Um, and some of those differences is what I'm trying to figure out specifically. So there's the importance of the information to.

[00:17:41] But, um, there's also the timing when they send you information. Would it be like when you're working, is there times where it's more convenient or less convenient to be interrupted?

[00:17:57] Participant 2: Um,

[00:18:01] well, I just depends on what I'm doing. Depends on what I'm doing really at work, but in general, I guess, not really.

[00:18:12] Luke: Um, cool. Well, I think that's about everything, I guess. Uh, yeah, I've got one question that I've forgot to ask, which is, do you feel a pressure to respond when you get a message?

[00:18:25] Participant 2: Um,

[00:18:27] I tell you sometimes it depends, um, what it is. Yeah. It depends on, it depends on who it is and what it is really. Yeah. So some people can be pretty demanding, you know and they're just like.

[00:18:43] Luke: Yeah.

[00:18:44] Participant 2: I suppose [they] expect it. But also some of the people that are demanding and you don't really owe them anything anyway, or you don't ...context of it, you might not work for them or for them

[00:18:57] so not really, but you know, it depends on that, but yeah,

[00:19:00] sometimes I do.

[00:19:04] Luke: Cool. Well, uh, that's everything then I guess.

[00:19:08] Thanks for that.

[00:00:00] Luke: Um, all right. So I have to do the ethics thing first before I start the proper interview. But, um, I just have to let you know the purpose of the interview, which is I'm researching about, um, like notifications on the mobile phone in terms of messages from other people.

[00:00:26] Participant 3: Yeah,

[00:00:27] Luke: how disruptive they can be. Um, and just how conversation is on- through like text messaging on the phone.

[00:00:44] And you can withdraw at any time. You're under no obligation to continue. You don't have to answer any questions you don't want to. I'll protect your identity, reputation, and data. I'll de-identify the data and delete anything you want and won't use it to make you look bad. I'll delete audio recordings and just keep transcriptions.

[00:01:03] Are you okay with me recording the audio of this interview?

[00:01:07] Participant 3: I [Participant 3's full name] acknowledge these terms.

[00:01:10] Luke: Thank you. Excellent. I think you're the most formal person who's done it so far, others have just been like, yeah, no worries.

[00:01:20] Participant 3: I'm just joking.

[00:01:23] Luke: I know, but it's, it looks good on the transcript.

[00:01:28] Although, I am going to have to take your name out.

[00:01:35] "I, participant 3..."

[00:01:38] Participant 3: Yeah, to protect my reputation haha.

[00:01:41] Luke: Okay. So I guess how much do you instant message? Is it like how regularly, I guess? Is it a very frequent thing?

[00:01:49] Participant 3: Very frequent.

[00:01:52] So I have, I have WhatsApp, which I have with a lot of people, I use Facebook Messenger to message a lot of people, and I also have slack at work.

[00:02:09] Luke: Ok, slack at work, ok cool,

[00:02:10] Um, and so that was going to be my next question, which ones do you use, which is good. Um, and I guess you've been, how long have you been doing it for uhh, messaging using these services for.

[00:02:25] Instant messaging in general and it doesn't have to be exact can just be rough.

[00:02:32] Participant 3: Umm,

[00:02:35] Luke: 15 years

[00:02:40] and are there any that you used to use, but you no longer do

[00:02:47] Participant 3: SMS messages,

[00:02:48] Luke: SMS. Cool. How come you don't use the SMS anymore?

[00:02:55] Participant 3: Um, it's not backed up to the cloud, I don't know, the app is bad.

[00:03:07] Um,

[00:03:19] I don't like that it's tied- I don't know,

[00:03:27] I mainly don't like that it's not backed up to the cloud.

[00:03:37] I like being disconnected from the physical device. I like being able to use my instant messaging on my PC as well.

[00:03:51] Luke:

[00:03:51] Yeah.

[00:03:51] You said the app is bad. Is there any reason?

[00:04:00] Participant 3: Um,

[00:04:06] Maybe it's not so bad. It's just, it feels old school.

[00:04:14] Luke: Cool.

[00:04:17] So on WhatsApp and Facebook messenger and slack, there's um, different ways of finding out how available someone is. So, um, I guess the first question is, do you use those, uh, availability indicators?

[00:04:38] Participant 3: I do definitely for slack. Not for Facebook Messenger or WhatsApp.,

[00:04:48] Luke: I then for slack. Which ones do you use?

[00:04:54] Participant 3: Indicator?

[00:04:55] Luke: Yeah.

[00:04:56] Participant 3: Just whether they're online or not.

[00:04:58] Luke: Okay. Yeah. Like the status then?

[00:05:00] Participant 3: Yeah, status.

[00:05:01] Luke: Um,.

[00:05:02] Participant 3: Sometimes it's good if they're away for lunch or if they're in a meeting or something.

[00:05:08] Luke: Yeah. Cool. Um, so when you see those, um, you know, if they're in a meeting or they're away for lunch, does that change what messages you'll send them?

[00:05:20] Participant 3: Yes. I'll only send them a message when I don't need an answer straight away.

[00:05:27] Luke: If you don't need an answer straight away ?

[00:05:29] Participant 3: Oh well, if they're in a meeting I won't message them.

[00:05:33] Luke: In a meeting, but if they're-

[00:05:36] Participant 3: [internet cuts out] there are random questions that I want an immediate response to,

[00:05:42] Luke: um, yeah, I think that broke up a bit, but, well, I think I got that. If they're at lunch, you'll send them a message that you don't need an immediate response to is that right?

[00:05:53] Participant 3: Yeah.

[00:05:54] Luke: Cool. Um, okay, so you don't use the activity indicators on WhatsApp or Facebook messenger. Um, sois there-,

[00:06:08] Participant 3: Facebook- with Facebook messenger it's just whether they're online or not, isn't it?

[00:06:14] Luke: Um, yeah. There's well, yeah, it has the, it does say if they're online, if they're active now, Um, but it also says the last time they were active, um, you use that at all?

[00:06:30] Participant 3: No.

[00:06:31] Luke: No. And if they're online now, does that change it at all?

[00:06:35] Participant 3: Not

[00:06:38] That I expect them to receive it straight away.

[00:06:39] Anyway,

[00:06:41] Luke: you you, so you, what you don't expect?

[00:06:44] Participant 3: I expect them to receive it on their phones straight away, I don't usually expect them to respond straight away, but...

[00:06:51] Luke: Yeah. Um, and I guess part of that then is those read receipts. Um, do you use those at all?

[00:07:03] Participant 3: I do, yeah, definitely.

[00:07:04] Luke: Yeah, so, um, I think there's the three different little icons. There's the first one is that it's been sent, but it hasn't been delivered to their phone.

[00:07:21] And the second one is it's been delivered to their phone. And the third one is that they've read it.

[00:07:27] Participant 3: Yes.

[00:07:28] Luke: Um,

[00:07:31] so I guess, um,

[00:07:41] How does that, is that information useful?

[00:07:46] Participant 3: Yeah, not the 'sent' ones not that useful. I mean, generally I have reception everywhere so I don't really, I don't really use that much. Um, the 'received' one, that's not that useful because generally everyone has rec-, oh, I use that sometimes that way I'll know if [Wife's] phone batteries died.

[00:08:12] Luke: Ah yep, ok, that's good to know.

[00:08:14] Participant 3: And then if they read it or not, it's very useful.because you know whether they received your message,

[00:08:23] Luke: um, and also on facebook messenger. I, well, I guess that's on WhatsApp as well. Isn't it? Those read receipts.

[00:08:33] Participant 3: Yep. Same on, uh, actually Facebook messenger,

[00:08:38] Does facebook have whether they'd received it or not? It has whether they've read it.

[00:08:48] Luke: It has the circle, and the tick, if the tick's coloured in, that's right. Oh yeah.

[00:08:55] Um,

[00:08:58] Participant 3: Slack doesn't have that though

[00:09:06] Luke: Slack doesn't have, have

[00:09:07] Participant 3: that, ok.

[00:09:08] It doesn't have read receipts, it doesn't have.. it doesn't have any of that.

[00:09:14] Luke: Um, so I guess the, is it, would you prefer that I did,

[00:09:22] Participant 3: uh... Some... in some cases I would.

[00:09:31] But I think it fits better with slack as a, a more work oriented tool, .

[00:09:41] Luke: Okay, why's that?

[00:09:46] Participant 3: Um, it's just maybe like too intrusive, like, you know, you're happy with you. Happy to have someone, like giving someone acknowledgement that they've read their message and that sort of stuff. If they're personal, like if they're a personal friend, but that feels like that's a bit too much, like it's too intrusive on like a professional app where might not necessarily.

[00:10:13] you know, like get along with them or you might need some time to think about, respond to what they've

[00:10:23] put the pressure on you. If you, if you feel like that they can see when you've messaged.

[00:10:30] Like it put's social pressure on you,

[00:10:40] Luke: um, ok, so,that that pressure is, um, that pressure isn't present in, uh, like if you had messaging, personal friends,

[00:10:54] Participant 3: uh, definitely less so.

[00:11:00] Yeah. It's, uh, it's just like, it's also that, like, you know them and in the end, you're friends with them. So. I feel like it's not going to be misconstrued as you being rude because I feel like they know me well enough to know

[00:11:28] or whatever. Whereas if it's someone you just slack with instant message. There's more room to misinterpret, like the tone of messages, that sort of stuff. If you don't actually know the person.

[00:11:50] Luke: Yeah. So, um, that's yeah, that's an interesting one. Um, so with these people that you instant message through work, are they people that you speak to face to face very much.

[00:12:10] Participant 3: Yeah,

[00:12:11] Luke: it was, um, so, but it's, it's more than, it's not, it's not the amount of communication that you've had with them. It's like face to face, like, does that, I was basically wondering if, if you talk to them more face to face, does that help or is it just the professional versus personal relationship?

[00:12:32] Participant 3: Does what help?

[00:12:34] Luke: Um, in terms of alleviating that pressure to respond.

[00:12:41] Participant 3: Oh,

[00:12:46] Luke: Sorry, say that again.

[00:12:51] Participant 3: Like if you're messaging them and then also talking face to face about the same topic.

[00:12:56] Luke: Yeah, yeah. Like this, um, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:13:02] Participant 3: Yeah, but like, for instance, like I'll work from home, for like a few days in a row.

[00:13:10] It's not like I'm messaging them across the room, so,

[00:13:13] Luke: yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, uh, would you message across the room?

[00:13:19] Participant 3: Uh, yeah. Sometimes if it's like, if it's something that I sort of want a record of as well.

[00:13:31] And reference back to later, like if I'm asking them a question that's highly technical, I want reference back to it later.I want to have it recorded.Um,

[00:14:01] Luke: in the work setting, are there people who, um, you're more comfortable with who you wouldn't mind having those read receipts?

[00:14:12] Participant 3: Yes.

[00:14:15] Luke: Um, so w would it be beneficial then to be able to control on an individual basis? Who has those read receipts,

[00:14:27] Participant 3: Possibly. But then like if you're turning it on for some people and other people like...Then that sort of becomes [ ... ] itself

[00:14:40] yeah. Like people would be aware of whether you're allowing that for them or not.

[00:14:51] Luke: So then it becomes another area for social pressure, I guess?

[00:14:58] Participant 3: Yeah.

[00:15:01] Luke: With the WhatsApp and the Facebook message. they have read receipts, but they also have messaged previews

[00:15:13] so you can get at least the first couple of lines of the message from the notification without having actually read the notification or completed the read receipt.

[00:15:28] Participant 3: I do like that. I do use that.

[00:15:32] Luke: Why do you like that?

[00:15:34] Participant 3: If I'm not ready to respond to someone immediately.

[00:15:39] You don't want to give the indication sometimes that you've read it and not responded. I can get what the message it about and decide that it's not important . Like if I'm in a meeting or something [inaudible] important things. Also. You can also see like most of the messages it's like, if you like expand that you can get more.

[00:16:04] Luke: Yeah. Okay. Um, okay. So, uh, is there, has there ever been a point where you tried to expand it and it hasn't given you all of the message I guess, or is that

[00:16:18] Participant 3: all the message?

[00:16:20] Luke: Well, I dunno. I don't know if there's a limit on that.

[00:16:22] Does it, does it still limit it when you expand?

[00:16:25] Participant 3: There is a limit might be like six or seven lines.

[00:16:33] Luke: So that that's usually enough to figure out the content of the message.

[00:16:39] Participant 3: Yeah, definitely.

[00:16:41] Luke: Yeah. Cool.

[00:16:42] Um, so, um, a lot of it, I guess, has been about you think other people, um, like the availability of other people, but do you think. Well, I guess, I guess that's part of it is that you don't want to show them the read receipt on your end from their message.

[00:17:09] So you'll just use the message. Um, preview, I guess, is, is that, so there's the two aspects of it. There's the read receipt and there's the, like active now in the last online thing. Does either of those ever come to your mind when you're previewing that message or, um, opening, maybe you're opening a messaging app.

[00:17:39] And you might think about whether it's showing you is active now or not. Does that come into your mind at all?

[00:17:49] Participant 3: Yeah. Someone else.

[00:17:54] So Casey, semi dizzy, like sometimes just preview the message to Atlanta.

[00:18:07] Luke: Okay. So that raid receipt is the main one. You don't think about other people using the, um, act like the other activity indicator, which is the like active now or the,

[00:18:19] Participant 3: yeah, I don't really consider that.

[00:18:23] Luke: And I'm also on WhatsApp and Facebook messenger, and I'm not sure if it's on slack, they have the, the little message bubble pop up when you're typing.

[00:18:37] Participant 3: Ah, yeah.

[00:18:39] Luke: Um.

[00:18:39] Participant 3: They have that on slack too.

[00:18:42] Luke: Okay. Um, Does that, uh, how, how did, how do you relate to that when other people are sending you a message and you see that they're typing.

[00:18:56] Participant 3: Yeah. I like, I liked that because I know that someone [inaudible]

[00:19:02] Because I always have the phone on silent, sometimes I miss, when people are sending me messages, I can know that like I've sent a message that someone's responding, like I can wait for it, expect it.

[00:19:16] Luke: And I guess part of that then is do they ever stop typing and not send you a message?

[00:19:27] Participant 3: Not really, no.

[00:19:28] Luke: Okay, cool. Um, and that's the slack one. Is that mainly on slack or is that also.

[00:19:48] Um, so that's mostly about the availability indicator of this stuff, um, the other one is more about receiving notifications at' bad times or. Yeah. Basically being interrupted by notifications. Um, can you think of any examples of that happening to you or is it, do you have any,

[00:20:21] Participant 3: yeah, like there is like a somewhat sort of subconscious need to like read something that's been sent to you straightaway. So I find it difficult to like ignore a message.

[00:20:45] Luke: Sorry did you say just to read the message.

[00:20:50] Participant 3: Yeah, to read it. Yeah. I just feel like I need to read what's [inaudible].

[00:20:58] Luke: And it makes it,

[00:21:03] sir.

[00:21:53] Participant 3: Sorry.

[00:21:55] Luke: Yep. Okay.

[00:22:00] Maybe it dropped out. Um, um, I can stop my video through that'll help with the connection.

[00:22:13] Uh, I didn't, I was just saying I'll stop the video. So it'll help with the internet. Um, yeah. So you feel that pressure to rate the message, but, um, is there a pressure to respond to it as well?

[00:22:30] Participant 3: Um, depends what the message is.

[00:22:36] Luke: Yeah. Um,

[00:22:41] So are there does it in terms of it, depending on what the message is-.

[00:22:48] Participant 3: Depends on what the message is, but who the person is as well.

[00:22:56] I've got friends that I'll organise to play board games with and whatever, and like

[00:23:01] you can just organize this throughout the day. It's not like an urgent thing you need to respond to.

[00:23:17] If [Wife] is asking me questions I'll generally be responding to them faster.

[00:23:27] If [Wife] is asking me questions I'll be respond to the more promptly and if I'm being asked, work questions then I'll yeah, feel pressure to respond to that so that, yeah,it doesn't look like I'm not working

[00:23:45] um,

[00:23:48] Luke: sorry, can you say that again? it dropped out. You said something about responding. It looks, it looks like you're not working.

[00:24:01] [ inaudible]

[00:24:01] Okay.

[00:24:04] So the, you respond to the work messages quicker, you feel the pressure to review and, um, what was the about the message to [wife]? Sorry.

[00:24:24] Okay. Um, Cool. I think that's, I think that's everything then. Cause, uh, unless there's anything else that you want to say about like just instant messaging and I don't know if it's does it, how does instant messaging feel in general? Is it like.

[00:24:39] Participant 3: I really like instant messaging. I don't like talking to people on the phone so much. I'll often use the chat for support questions to companies rather than calling them, cause it's more convenient

[00:24:59] like if you're waiting on the phone, it's annoying. But if you just have a chat off to the side of your screen which you're waiting on, it's much less annoying.

[00:25:10] So I use that aspect of it's [indauble - transcript?] as well

[00:25:13] Luke: Yeah. Okay. So you don't have to be as present?

[00:25:18] Participant 3: Yes. It's a lot more instantaneous than sending emails back and forwards.

[00:25:25] Luke: Yeah. Okay.

[00:25:27] Participant 3: Yeah.

[00:25:30] Luke: So it's a lot more instantaneous and sending emails because, uh,

[00:25:34] Participant 3: because you can have a lot more back and forth.

[00:25:37] Luke: Okay. Like you could send an email back and forth like a chat but..

[00:25:44] Participant 3: But sometimes you can, but generally companies will respond to you faster in an instant message than an email.

[00:25:54] Luke: Okay.

[00:25:55] And do you email, other people, um,

[00:26:02] is it just companies or do you email other people as well?

[00:26:08] Um,

[00:26:12] Participant 3: No, it's just companies.

[00:26:15] Luke: Okay, cool. And that's because you want that that, um, it's more responsive or,

[00:26:27] Participant 3: yeah, so, um, and it's easier because

[00:26:32] Luke: easier?

[00:26:33] Participant 3: You don't always have access to someone's personal email, but if you've got their phone number or on Facebook or WhatsApp like it's just a bigger contact list.

[00:26:46] Luke: Yeah. Okay. And, um,

[00:26:49] you were also saying it'snot the same, sending an email as it is just sending a message.

[00:26:58] Participant 3: Yeah. And email feels more formal.

[00:27:02] Luke: Um, and so that means that you have to do what differently?

[00:27:14] Participant 3: Uh, I dunno, it doesn't, it doesn't feel like I don't know it just, you get the feeling an email takes longer to get through to someone. Not everyone has notifications on their phone when they receive an email.

[00:27:30] Luke: Okay.

[00:27:31] Participant 3: Like they do for messaging.

[00:27:34] Luke: Yeah,

[00:27:34] Participant 3: and I feel like there's a lot higher chance people changing their emails.

[00:27:43] Luke: So ok, so it's harder to get hold of them.

[00:27:45] Participant 3: Like [Friend] for instance, he's got like three or four different emails. I can never remember which one he actually uses. Same with you, [my old, unprofessional email address]. Like I have no idea what email you use.

[00:28:00] Luke: I have. I've got them all forwarded to the same email address. So I'll just use,

[00:28:07] Participant 3: There's no, you know, there's no,

[00:28:10] Luke: yeah. It's not clear.

[00:28:12] Participant 3: Yeah.

[00:28:13] Luke: Yeah. Fair enough.

[00:28:14] Participant 3: It's not clear when you're sending it whether they're actually going to receive it or not, or whether they have received it.

[00:28:19] Luke: Yeah. Okay. Yep. So it's not clear for that.

[00:28:26] So how would it be if there were read receipts on emails?

[00:28:31] Participant 3: Um, you know there actually is?

[00:28:34] Luke: There is? Okay.

[00:28:37] Participant 3: Um, the people like the salespeople and stuff at work, they use this thing called HubSpot and send emails. And it'll tell you if someone's opened the email, how many times they've opened it.

[00:28:51] Luke: Yeah.

[00:28:52] Participant 3: I think how long they've opened- maybe not, but yeah, it would just show whether they've, you know, down to the level of if they've opened how many times.

[00:29:02] So there's definitely that functionality available.

[00:29:06] Luke: Is that, um, like a third party thing or is that built in.

[00:29:10] Participant 3: I'm not sure to be honest.

[00:29:12] Luke: Yeah. And certainly not very obvious where it is then I guess.

[00:29:16] Participant 3: No, it's not. It's not very available.

[00:29:20] Luke: Yeah.

[00:29:23] Participant 3: Um,

[00:29:26] Luke: I guess, um,

[00:29:30] but yeah, that's good. My project is sort of trying to help. Um, instant messaging feels a bit more like a conversation. Um, is there a lot of things that you do in a conversation like your, um, Take turns and you'll like back channels to someone. So you'll say like, oh yes. Or sure. Or you'll say that, just give indicators that you're listening and you'll also use like cues to find out if they're available or not.

[00:30:05] Like, if someone's, I don't know, you got the headphones on and they're studying intensely on their computer, then you're less likely to want to interrupt them.

[00:30:15] Participant 3: Yeah.

[00:30:16] Luke: So.

[00:30:18] Participant 3: Ah, you know, there's a couple of things that are quite block about instant messaging, as opposed to a natural conversation is like in, in slack, you can start a sub-thread from a message.

[00:30:36] So like if you remember something, but it's like, you know, five messages back, you can respond to that specific message. And it starts like a thread underneath that message. That you can have, essentially, a new conversation in, that might be like a sub topic. You know, you might want to break it off somewhere where you might just have thought back a bit.

[00:31:00] I don't want to have to like say, oh, you know, when you said this... instant reference to, you know, the history and then you can respond to it directly again, I find that quite good.

[00:31:15] Luke: Yeah.

[00:31:16] Participant 3: And, um, and yeah, like WhatsApp, you can respond to a specific message as well, and it shows that message as a quote and then the response underneath.

[00:31:28] So to sort of, you know, same theme but slightly different implementations.

[00:31:37] Luke: Yeah.

[00:31:37] Participant 3: I find those good.

[00:31:41] Luke: Um, so in what, in what context do you use those? Just any con context or is there a particular,

[00:31:48] Participant 3: uh, like sometimes someone will ask me like a couple of things or you know, I, again, like, if you, if you're responding to something that's not directly the, you know, the previous message, for instance, is the message that you're actually responding to.

[00:32:07] Luke: Okay. Okay. So in a conversation it's impossible to do that or

[00:32:15] Participant 3: Harder to do that.

[00:32:16] Luke: Much harder to do that

[00:32:18] Participant 3: because it's yeah. it's harder to like backtrack in a conversation.

[00:32:26] You feel like once you feel the natural conversation sort of just flowed away from something, it's

[00:32:31] a bit sort of weird to like bring it up again.

[00:32:33] Luke: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think you've brought up a couple of times. You liked that, like times you like that history of the conversation.

[00:32:42] Participant 3: Yeah

[00:32:44] Luke: Um, cool. That's good to know is that, um,

[00:32:48] Participant 3: especially like when I'm organizing stuff, like if I'm organizing something, you know, days, weeks in advance, it's like a clear reference to what time and date you organized the stuff.

[00:33:03] Luke: Um,

[00:33:04] Participant 3: whereas if you just have a conversation with someone and don't write it down, like you can forget.

[00:33:10] Luke: Yeah. Um, okay. That's really interesting because, um, some of the interviews I've done look at using like slack, not slack, sorry, Snapchat, which I'm sort of the opposite to that. Cause it's, um, the message is like gone. Um, within, I don't know how long after reading it, but,

[00:33:36] Participant 3: and I don't like Snapchat.

[00:33:38] Luke: Yeah. So there's no situation where you think like some of the messages you'd be fine with them just disappearing.

[00:33:48] Participant 3: Nah, I don't know why I'd want that.

[00:33:51] Luke: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I guess, cause um, it's like a conversation I guess, is that you can just have a conversation and leave it in the past you don't have a record of everything.

[00:34:08] Participant 3: No, I'm someone that just likes having as much information as I can get.

[00:34:13] Luke: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Cool. Um, all right. Well, I guess one last thing is that the. The app that I'm looking at making is based off of a previous one that they did some research on, which is this idea where you can set a status, um, just for one other person.

[00:34:39] So they did it with a study with couples and with close friends. And the idea was that you can set a status, but only when that person messages you do, they see that status. And then when they see that status, they can choose whether to send you a notification on your phone.

[00:34:58] Participant 3: Oh yeah.

[00:35:00] Luke: So, um, they might say like good morning and it comes up with Bob is having breakfast.

[00:35:06] And do you want to alert him? Um, so I guess how does, how does that system sound? Is that something that you think would be useful to you?

[00:35:19] Participant 3: Um,

[00:35:25] I think it'd have to be more automated.

[00:35:29] Luke: Yeah?

[00:35:29] Participant 3: So like, if I had, um,

[00:35:37] you know, if you're talking to someone like internationally, it'd be definitely useful. like if you're at a time that you're like asleep or just don't want to be disturbed.

[00:35:47] Luke: Yup.

[00:35:50] Participant 3: Slack actually has, um, a feature like that, where you can pause notifications. When you message them.

[00:35:58] It says, you know, Luke's pause notifications, do you want to, do you want to send them this note notification anyway?

[00:36:07] Luke: Yeah.

[00:36:08] Participant 3: You can say yes or no. And they still, they still get the message, but it's like, whether you're pinging them with it or not.

[00:36:14] Luke: Yeah. ok,

[00:36:17] Participant 3: Um, so I think that would be good. And especially if like you're doing a period of work or something where you just need to be focused and not disturbed, like you can set it like or I'm doing a focus session or something.

[00:36:34] Luke: Yeah.

[00:36:35] Participant 3: But, but some if someone's messaging with something urgent, they can still push through to you.

[00:36:41] I think that would be useful.

[00:36:42] Luke: Yeah.

[00:36:44] Participant 3: And then I think if it integrated, like with your calendar or something where it's like, oh yeah, [Participant 3] is at a meeting now? Do you want to disturb them? Sort of thing? That'd be good too.

[00:36:56] Luke: Okay. So you, you actually set like you meetings in your calendar?

[00:37:01] Participant 3: Yeah.

[00:37:02] Luke: Yeah. Cool. I guess, cause um, if you're working from home. Three days a week, right?

[00:37:08] Participant 3: Yeah. But yeah, like I wouldn't be going through and putting, I started having breakfast and now I've stopped having breakfast. Like that's a lot of effort to do that unless you just set your breakfast time every morning.

[00:37:25] Luke: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Um, okay. The system that they made, they had a list of previous statuses. So you didn't have to type it in and every time does that help with that at all, you

[00:37:43] just tap it,

[00:37:44] Participant 3: Can you integrate it with like, um, you know, like Siri or Google voice, whatever. Just say like, Hey, Google set my status, eating breakfast or something. That'd be really easy.

[00:38:03] Luke: That'd be really easy? Uh, the audio seems to have stopped again. So that would, that would be good.

[00:38:18] Participant 3: Yeah, I reckon.

[00:38:21] Luke: Yeah. Cool. Um, Yeah, well, that's, that's good. Everything pretty well covered. I can't really think of too much else. Is there anything that comes to mind for you?

[00:38:31] Participant 3: Um,

[00:38:39] no, I think that's good.

[00:38:41] Luke: Cool. Well, thanks for that

[00:00:00] Luke: Um, so I have to start with the ethics thing.

[00:00:03] Participant 4: Okay, yep.

[00:00:04] Luke: I have to say the purpose of the study is to understand how people use their phones for instant messaging and how it's, uh, can be improved to better facilitate natural social interaction. And you can withdraw at any time. You're under no obligation to continue.

[00:00:25] You don't have to answer any questions you don't want to.

[00:00:27] Participant 4: Yep.

[00:00:28] Luke: I'll protect your identity, reputation, and data, I'll deidentify data and delete anything you want. you you want, and won't use it to make it look bad. I'll delete audio recordings and just keep transcriptions.

[00:00:42] Participant 4: Okay.

[00:00:42] Luke: And are you okay with me recording the audio of the interview?

[00:00:45] Participant 4: Yep, that's fine.

[00:00:46] Luke: Cool, all right. So, um, first off, it's just understanding your current use of um, instant messaging. Um, so how often do you do it? I guess, is it a very regular part

[00:01:07] of..

[00:01:08] Participant 4: Oh, A few times a week.

[00:01:10] Luke: A few times a week?

[00:01:12] Participant 4: Uh, it's mainly mealtimes. is one of the things combined with the [extended family surname] yeah. So we uh keep track of where the meal times are. Well, we don't know, we don't have a set time for meals,

[00:01:25] so get a message when dinner is likely to be ready.

[00:01:28] Luke: Yeah.

[00:01:29] Participant 4: It's quite handy. And then just with [wife] sort of coming and going up to [mother in law's place] and back keeping track of when she's coming back or what she's doing. Cause those times vary too.

[00:01:39] Luke: Yeah.

[00:01:40] Participant 4: That'd be the main uses and with [son] when going shopping or different times that I'll be home.

[00:01:50] Yeah, that'd be about it.

[00:01:54] Luke: So yeah, a few times a week. Um, and what, uh, like services, instant messaging services. Do you

[00:02:04] use at the moment?

[00:02:06] Participant 4: Uh, WhatsApp is WhatsApp and messenger.

[00:02:09] Luke: Yeah.

[00:02:09] Participant 4: Two main ones,

[00:02:14] um, texts. I probably use it with staff sometimes if they're away. Um,

[00:02:23] Luke: yeah. That's,

[00:02:24] Participant 4: that's not very often.

[00:02:26] Luke: Yeah. What do you use email with that with them?

[00:02:31] Participant 4: Yep. Yep. So, usually uh, when the wages are paid there's an email sent with the details on what the wage payments, where. It's confirmed, it's gone into their bank account.

[00:02:42] Luke: Yeah. Um, uh, So you use WhatsApp and messenger, um, and it text messages. Uh, do you have a preference for any of them?

[00:02:58] Participant 4: Um, uh, suppose WhatsApp's one that I can find it easier to use or, I've got it set up, so it's easy to use.

[00:03:16] Luke: Is that w which parts of it makes it easier to use,

[00:03:21] Participant 4: uh, suppose it's familiarity with the way it's set up. That's one thing. It makes it easier. Um, probably use it. Well, usually I use it more often. What's more with the immediate family. So use it more often. Messenger only started using it more recently because of the, um, you know, with the, uh, dinner with the [extended family surname]

[00:03:49] I sort of use that more for that. So, um, yeah, only started using it more recently and

[00:04:02] yeah, I suppose one of the things with that I just use the the uh thumbs up, so I've been used to using texts sort of thing where I've Put in words and the little pictogram ones or something. I'm not all that familiar with. But having a thumbs up, sitting there ready you can click on it. It's very handy.

[00:04:23] Luke: Um,

[00:04:27] okay. Um,

[00:04:35] how does sending a message differ from face-to-face conversation. Is it, um,

[00:04:44] Participant 4: Oh it's usually just about simple messages. Yes or no, or this time, or that time. Um, emails and texts, are more questions or something that might need a bit more discussion, asking for more information or providing a bit more background and things.

[00:05:08] Texts and more conversational too. Whereas the messages are very sort of point-like or just very specific little bits.

[00:05:16] Luke: Okay. Yep. Um, so the text messages, are more conversational.

[00:05:27] Participant 4: Yeah.

[00:05:28] Luke: Okay. And, uh, that's between you and um, the staff?

[00:05:37] Participant 4: Oh, not so much, it's more with [wife] you know, if I'm sending a more detailed message on finding out what she's up to or what she's doing at the shops.

[00:05:46] Um, or she sent a photo or something, so that sort of more conversational, the staff can be more finding out more information, um, more details on what's going on.

[00:06:02] Luke: Oh, yeah, I see. Yeah. I'm sorry. I thought you meant SMS, like texts texting just meant like the text itself is more, whereas yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, cool. Uh,

[00:06:22] and

[00:06:27] how do you feel about it in general? The instant messaging stuff.

[00:06:32] Participant 4: Um, yeah, it's very handy, very useful, as long as I can get a signal. So that's where the, uh, using the wifi is handy when I do that, because the internet signal is not all that useful here. Very hard to get a signal on my phone and even at work it's, I'm not very good internet connection.

[00:06:54] So the wifi is a useful aspect. When you're in an area where you can use wifi, uh, which is usually I'll do messages sort of. Um,

[00:07:14] yeah. So, um, what was the question again?

[00:07:18] Luke: It's more like, uh, do you, do you, would you prefer to, um, like receive an email or talk face-to-face with someone other than sending an instant message? Like, is there any ways in which, uh, or, or maybe you prefer instant messaging? Is there, is there some way that it's got some benefits over those other ways of communicating or is it worse in some ways?

[00:07:42] Participant 4: Oh, it's very good. The benefits are in those short points. Just about what time something is on so you can find out little bits of information or letting someone know that you'll be somewhere at a certain point in time.

[00:07:55] Luke: Yeah.

[00:07:57] Participant 4: Or a specific question or list of things to get from the shops.

[00:08:00] Luke: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:01] Participant 4: So it's, um, very specific little points.

[00:08:05] It's very strong, very helpful for that. As long as I've got a signal, that's where, uh, um, if you're dri-, well, if you're driving and if you can do hands free and, um, it's not all that helpful. Cause we don't get which no signal, And even, um, yeah. The text messages, SMS sort of with mobile phones, not very helpful at home either because no signal.

[00:08:35] Luke: Yep.

[00:08:36] Participant 4: Even at work. So that's where the instant message services on wifi have an advantage because usually the wifi is more readily available for us or for me, at least in the, um, yeah.

[00:08:51] Luke: Yeah. Um, okay. On, um, WhatsApp and Facebook, they have the read receipts. Uh, do you know what those are?

[00:09:12] Participant 4: No. No, just the double tick is what you've mentioned for

[00:09:15] Luke: Yeah

[00:09:16] Participant 4: WhatsApp,is that what you mean?

[00:09:18] Luke: Yep.

[00:09:19] Participant 4: Yeah. I've only learned about that from yourself. So. otherwise I had no idea about it.

[00:09:24] Luke: Yeah. Okay. So that was just recently.

[00:09:26] Participant 4: Yeah.

[00:09:26] Luke: Yeah. And..

[00:09:30] Participant 4: The only way I'd know if it was red as if I got a reply from them sort of

[00:09:33] Luke: yeah.

[00:09:33] Participant 4: making a comment or thumbs up or something else.

[00:09:37] Luke: And, um,

[00:09:42] so

[00:09:46] there's also, um,

[00:09:50] uh, uh, Status that's tells you if someone is active now or the last time that they were on mine.

[00:10:01] Participant 4: Yeah. I wouldn't know where to look for those. I'm a pretty basic user of these things and I don't know much about them. Yeah. Um,

[00:10:11] Luke: it also says if they're typing, when they're typing it in.

[00:10:16] Participant 4: Yeah, I haven't seen it. I don't know that one.

[00:10:17] I've only seen it on the live bots the chat things on.. When you're online getting information from some company.

[00:10:25] Luke: Yeah. Okay.

[00:10:26] Participant 4: It says, you know, they're typing or,

[00:10:28] Luke: yeah. Okay.

[00:10:29] Participant 4: But I don't know about it on WhatsApp or messenger. I've got an idea about it then.

[00:10:35] Luke: So on the online thing, is that a useful thing to have?

[00:10:43] Participant 4: Yeah. up to a point it has been, um, it gets some of the basic questions but uh, sometimes if I ask a more obscure question or don't know how to- my wording or expression might be not quite what it can pick up on.

[00:10:57] Luke: Okay. So it's, it's just the robot, like replying to you. It's not actually a human being?

[00:11:03] Participant 4: Oh most of the time it's a robot. There was once or twice. I remember a person, but the person one is definitely more flexible. Yeah.

[00:11:12] Luke: Yeah.

[00:11:12] Participant 4: More responsive.

[00:11:13] Luke: So even when it was a robot, it was still, it still had that typing.

[00:11:17] Participant 4: Yeah.

[00:11:18] Luke: Okay. So, um, having that thing, showing that it was typing something, was that helpful?

[00:11:24] Participant 4: Yes. Yeah. That's helpful to know there's a response coming.

[00:11:28] Luke: Yeah. Yeah. Um, um, I guess, I don't know how much of. Uh, communication you've done with real customer service people through those things, but has there ever been a time where they've been typing and then a message hasn't come through?

[00:11:52] Participant 4: No, no, it's always worked.

[00:11:54] Luke: Yep. Um, okay. So that's sort of part of it, I guess, is that the other part is, do you think about. When you send messages, like whether the other person is busy or..?

[00:12:13] Participant 4: Uh, generally not, no.

[00:12:16] Luke: Yeah.

[00:12:17] Participant 4: I just assume that they'll uh, see it when they've got a chance or you know if it beeps or

[00:12:24] Luke: yeah.

[00:12:24] Participant 4: They'll realize that there's a message come through. There's the sound signal and reply to it when they can.

[00:12:33] Luke: Yeah. Okay. So. Uh, it's not as much of a conversation like a, um, synchronous sort of thing. It's not so much a thing where it's like, you're talking to someone else in the same room?

[00:12:46] Participant 4: No, no. I use that differently. It's more like a little point to sort out, you know, whether it's the time that dinner's on or something like that, and just wait for a reply. So I'm not expecting to get a reply straight away. Sometimes do.

[00:13:02] Luke: Yeah.

[00:13:03] Participant 4: Othertimes when it turns up.

[00:13:07] Luke: Um, so you only know if someone's seen the messages when you get the reply from them?

[00:13:13] Participant 4: Yeah, that's it.

[00:13:14] Luke: Yeah. Um,

[00:13:19] and

[00:13:28] so is.

[00:13:34] Um,

[00:13:40] so you're more available on the email when you're at work?

[00:13:45] Participant 4: Yeah. Just cause the, um, between patients I'll be looking at the computer to check, uh, cause it comes up with the name of the next person there and it tells me what time they've arrived. And I can see the little email symbol, if there's new email there and usually have a few spare seconds, I can just check and see and, uh,, sometimes I'll see a message that needs a timely reply or something I think it's important to get onto, and I can answer it between patients. I just have it handy and set up there, you know, messages come through and I just automatically look at it when there's something there when I get a chance.

[00:14:30] Luke: Yeah. Um, and you don't have your phone with you all the time?

[00:14:37] Participant 4: No, not at work. Um, sort of either tucked away in the drawer or on charge. Uh, and as I said, the there's, uh, the signals- it doesn't get a signal.

[00:14:49] Luke: Even with the wifi, doesn't get a signal?

[00:14:52] Participant 4: There's a wifi signal. So it'll pick up on a WhatsApp, messenger. But um, occasionally there will be a telephone- it rings and when I've answered it, there's no answer because- it's somehow it's got a signal to ring, but there doesn't been any further signal at all provide any other voice or anything else.

[00:15:14] Luke: Yeah.

[00:15:15] Participant 4: It's because we're in such a poor area.

[00:15:18] Luke: Um, okay, so you can't get any text messages either, I guess,

[00:15:23] Participant 4: Generally not.

[00:15:23] Luke: Yeah. Okay. Um, and so outside of work, do you have your phone with you?

[00:15:32] Participant 4: Most of the time, yeah, just driving the car is. Um, I just tend to ignore it a bit then.

[00:15:38] Luke: Yeah.

[00:15:39] Participant 4: Uh, That's where you can see some of the other hand strain, the little dashboard, the steering wheel controls and things could be handy.

[00:15:48] Luke: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:49] Participant 4: But it's not that often only get cars and get a message on the phones. It's more, if you think of something that you'd like to send a message.

[00:15:55] Luke: Okay.

[00:15:56] Participant 4: That's where it might be handy.

[00:15:57] Luke: Yeah. Um, and so when you get a message, do you feel like you have to respond to it? In a timely way.

[00:16:13] Participant 4: Yeah. Usually, usually that those sort of messages are more time dependent or something that's happening or

[00:16:21] Luke: yeah.

[00:16:22] Participant 4: So yeah I see those more as more urgent things.

[00:16:26] Luke: Okay. Um, and, um, have you. had Uh, any notifications or text messages pop up bad times?

[00:16:47] Participant 4: Oh, usually the scam calls. I get a few of those. they seem to come in bursts. There's been a few more recently and the phone will ring or buzz or something and I'll ignore it and and then when I get a chance to have a look at it and see it was just totally unknown number or something like uh, please. Uh, link go to this link for some parcel that's being sent to which you never knew anything about seem like obvious scams but

[00:17:16] Luke: yeah.

[00:17:16] Participant 4: so they're the main things that turn up at weird times or difficult times

[00:17:20] Luke: Okay.

[00:17:21] Participant 4: Otherwise um not really, it's the only the accountant at one stage were trying to communicate via text messages. I had to send them a- finally they got the message that email's the best way to communicate with me. So they were one group and, um, that's probably the main actually was, it would be the account. they're the ones that like to use text messages a bit, which could turn up time- during the day and it should be good to send a reply to them cause that was something which was needed a bit more urgent attention. I'd I wouldn't see it till the end of the day or after office hours.

[00:18:04] Luke: Yeah.

[00:18:05] Participant 4: So as I said email's the best way to get in touch with me.

[00:18:08] Luke: Yeah. Yeah. So it's interesting. Cause it seems like from the other interviews I've done, um, people are more responsive through messengers rather than email.

[00:18:23] Participant 4: Yeah.

[00:18:24] Luke: Um, but

[00:18:27] Participant 4: uh, just a function of how I've got it set up.

[00:18:32] Luke: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:18:33] Participant 4: Just the convenience for the emails. They're looking at the computer doing things.

[00:18:38] Luke: Yeah.

[00:18:38] Participant 4: Between times. So I can see all these emails have come in. So then I can have a quick look and see

[00:18:44] Luke: yeah,

[00:18:45] Participant 4: otherwise the phone I'd have to go to a separate area to get the phone, switch it on to, you know, click on the app.

[00:18:53] Luke: Yeah.

[00:18:54] Participant 4: It's not so easy. It's just not convenient the way I've got it set up the way I operate.

[00:19:02] Luke: So there are, um, you can access like, uh, for instance, Facebook messenger through the computer as well.

[00:19:10] Participant 4: Yeah. But, um, it's, uh, that's something that I've really gone into.

[00:19:18] Luke: And I guess, I guess partly because, um, I mean, there is a difference between the two, right. What's that for you? What's the difference between an email message and an email and Facebook messenger message. You said that the Face-

[00:19:37] Participant 4: email is usually a little bit more detail needed whereas Facebook is using, or just one point of simple sort of thing and emails it's much more wide ranging. So there's a lot of different work things that, are Related to work anyway. so it might be the dental association, things come through, afrom the specialist we get letters back from a specialist via email.

[00:20:04] Luke: Okay. Yeah. Okay.

[00:20:06] Participant 4: Accountant, financial advisor and there's CPD (Continuing Professional Development) things, specials, a lot of the dental companies send their specials. out they send emails, some of them more than once a week. Start to become a bit too many. So there's a lot more sent via email to me.

[00:20:24] Luke: Yep. And some of that sounds like it's time sensitive.

[00:20:29] Participant 4: Yeah.

[00:20:30] Luke: Yeah. So it's um, so you tend to respond to emails fairly quickly?

[00:20:39] Participant 4: Yep, generally do.

[00:20:40] Luke: When they're time-sensitive.

[00:20:41] Participant 4: Yeah,

[00:20:41] Luke: yeah. Yup. Um, would you say it's quicker than the messages on the phone?

[00:20:48] =I guess it depends a bit.

[00:20:52] Participant 4: Only in the sense that not the way I've set it up, I sort of, you know, I've got a habit going and yeah, I've got to set there, ready to go. So I look at it all the time.Oh there's a message, I can send a reply quickly, but the WhatsApp is pretty good. The messenger with its little thumbs up is simple and quick and easy.

[00:21:08] Luke: Yeah.

[00:21:08] Participant 4: That's just for meal times. So that's fairly specific and short.

[00:21:14] Luke: Uh, is there any raising that you can think of that it is set up this way?

[00:21:20] Participant 4: Uh, just the habits, it's just the way I got, you know, the way I got got started on.

[00:21:24] Luke: Yeah.

[00:21:25] Participant 4: Um, no particular reason.

[00:21:29] Luke: So the habits for email were already there before the messenger stuff came along?

[00:21:35] Participant 4: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:37] Luke: Um, I guess I didn't ask, how long do you think you've been using the instant messaging stuff for

[00:21:44] Participant 4: Yeah, well, that's the other thing, I've been using emails for a long time. instant messaging only, um,, um, uh, well, a messenger only within you know really use- seen it around, but only used it in the last couple of years.

[00:22:00] WhatsApp, probably a little bit longer, but not that long either. So I'm a bit slow on sort of pick up on some of these things.

[00:22:08] Luke: Yeah, well, it's, um, it's, uh, not really. You know, a good or a bad thing to pick it, pick it up sooner or later, it's more just figuring out what the differences are and how they could be more useful.

[00:22:26] Participant 4: Yeah.

[00:22:27] Luke: Um, or, yeah. Um,

[00:22:38] so.

[00:22:43] Yeah. So you think you don't really think about what other people might be busy or something when you send them a message?

[00:22:56] Participant 4: No. The, um, when with messaging usually it's in response it's yeah. I don't know if I initiate the things on them. so it's usually in response. So if someone's sent a message I'm assuming, I would like a reply at some stage.

[00:23:12] Uh, so I assume they'll be doing things and they can keep an eye out for any messages that come through. Yeah. So, cause yeah usually I do as a respondent- responding sort of situation rather than initiating is when I say meal- dinner will be at this time and I assume they'll be looking out for what time dinner will be anyway.

[00:23:32] Luke: Yeah.

[00:23:33] Participant 4: And expecting something.

[00:23:34] Luke: Yeah.

[00:23:34] Participant 4: Um, Probably don't ever really send message out of the blue.

[00:23:40] Luke: Yeah. Okay. So there's never been like it too late at night or something.

[00:23:51] Participant 4: I mean, with [wife] when she's at [mother in law's]. She sent through a question once and I sent a reply back it was on WhatsApp and she said ah ok I'm off the bed now. So yeah she just sort of said that's enough now.

[00:24:11] Luke: Okay. Yeah. Um,

[00:24:17] Participant 4: so it hasn't been, other times as I said I generally don't initiate so many messages, uh,

[00:24:24] Luke: yeah.

[00:24:24] Participant 4: Uh, with responding, you know, the other person's well, you assume they're looking for, or keeping it half an eye out for a reply.

[00:24:35] Luke: Cool

[00:24:36] Participant 4: Just the way I tend to use it.

[00:24:38] Luke: Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Um, so, um, is there anything that's like better or worse? Instant messaging compared to like face-to-face conversations. I don't know. It's a bit of a broad question, but do you have a preference for one over the other?

[00:25:14] Participant 4: Yeah, it's different. Um, so the Tinder is just for the short little points, whereas convers- face-to-face is more conversation sort of discussing things in looking at things from different angles.

[00:25:27] Luke: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:30] Participant 4: Sharing a laugh sort of more entertaining type things. Yeah. Um, so it has a different purpose. So you just sort of use it differently where it's seen as helpful or useful as just for those short points. Whereas conversation is, you said that's different again. Yeah. So it has a different function to conversation.

[00:25:51] So just the way to use it. So it's a bit hard to compare them because we use it differently. Just sort of say, you know, this is a strength of it is this conversation is a lot more to and fro and, uh, discussing things, looking at things from different angles, which requires sort of more feedback. And you see how people respond is all the, the nonverbal communication to yeah.

[00:26:17] Just doesn't happen on the text message.

[00:26:20] Luke: Yeah.

[00:26:20] Participant 4: So that that's more sort of a. Factual or a simple points. So just a simple level, sort of low level type conversation in that sense or very basic level. It was a face-to-face there's a lot more, you know you see how people are responding, whether you go further discussing things in that area, whether you try something from a different angle or talk about something different or yeah.

[00:26:45] So it's quite a bit different.

[00:26:47] Luke: Yeah. Do you think it would be useful.. Well, I guess so with the instant messaging, um, you're saying there's all those like, uh, social cues and things from body language and all the rest of it. Is it, um, do you think that instant messaging would benefit if it could get some of that?

[00:27:18] Participant 4: There's been a couple of people that use the emoji things more.

[00:27:23] Luke: Yeah.

[00:27:24] Participant 4: And, uh, sort of a useful in that sense that you get an idea that this person thinks this is funny or, um, they're exclaiming or so they're helpful.

[00:27:36] Luke: A bit more expressive?

[00:27:37] Participant 4: Yeah.

[00:27:40] Luke: Yeah. Okay. So, so that that's helpful in that sense. Yeah. Um, how well, how well do you try to understand another person's state of mind through their messages? Is that something that ever pops up or is it just informational?

[00:28:06] Participant 4: Uh, that's not, yeah, that's more than mild when there's a little bit more going on. Not so much in messaging

[00:28:13] Luke: okay. Like the, uh,

[00:28:15] Participant 4: I suppose the only one is [wife] is the only one that sends longer messages.

[00:28:21] Luke: Yeah.

[00:28:22] Participant 4: Some photos and things. or comments, about [mother in law] or something. So that's really the only ones a bit more expressive, more involved.

[00:28:31] Luke: Yeah.

[00:28:32] Participant 4: Yeah. Most of the time it's just simple things.

[00:28:36] Luke: Okay. One of the, um, well, the inspiration for the prototype that I'll be making, or at least part of the inspiration for it is this previous paper where they made an app, that it would let you, um, it was aimed at couples and friends. So it would let you set a status that, that other person could be. But they could only read it when they sent you a message and it would come up with, um, little alert box saying um, you know, Bob is having breakfast. Would you like to alert him or not alert him? So, um, you could say alert and it would actually make the notification on their phone or it would not alert them. So, I guess, does that sound like it would be useful at all, given your current usage?

[00:29:49] Participant 4: Um, probably not, but, uh, it may do. I mean, I haven't sort of, um, really thought about what the other person's doing, um, yeah. Well, as I said, I would tend to be more responding to messages.

[00:30:10] Luke: Yeah. Do you, yeah. So you don't mind like, um, I guess even with the email, because you get email alerts on your computer, do they turn up at any inconvenient times or is that just,

[00:30:25] Participant 4: I just look at them when I can, so yeah, they'll turn up.

[00:30:28] Luke: It's not really-

[00:30:29] Participant 4: Well the ones from overseas turn up at 2:00 AM so I don't look at those until the next day, but yeah, no, you know, look they're um.

[00:30:39] Yeah.

[00:30:43] I just look at them when I can say, so it sort of just accumulates.

[00:30:48] Luke: Yeah.

[00:30:50] Participant 4: And yeah, I mean, can miss some that way. You get a lot accumulating and go back to looking and then don't get enough time to get through it all. And then the next day goes by and you accumulate more and then can end up missing some emails that way.

[00:31:05] Luke: Yeah.

[00:31:05] Participant 4: Uh, so in the sense it would be useful that you'd know a certain party had sent a message.

[00:31:12] Luke: Yep.

[00:31:13] Participant 4: So that would be an advantage. Yeah.

[00:31:16] Luke: Yeah. Okay. Um,

[00:31:25] is there anything about the effect that the email is just on the desktop computer? actually, Is it just on the desktop computer at work?

[00:31:36] Participant 4: Yeah.

[00:31:37] Luke: The alerts that is, they just show up on the desktop computer at work.

[00:31:40] Participant 4: Yeah.

[00:31:41] Luke: Is there anything about that? That's um, you prefer because it's just in the one place, does that seem like a benefit to it in any way?

[00:31:50] Participant 4: Yeah, it's a convenience factor. Definitely.

[00:31:52] Luke: Yeah. It's more convenient to have it all in one place,

[00:31:55] Participant 4: yeah,

[00:31:55] Luke: rather than I like, is it sort of.

[00:32:03] A bit easier to manage rather than having your phone on you and being able to be notified at any time.

[00:32:10] Participant 4: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Cause I'm working on the computer, you know, between patient always doing notes, sending details through to the front desk and uh, cause of opening and closing things. I can see there's all little icons across the bottom or there's new emails there.

[00:32:27] Luke: Yeah.

[00:32:28] Participant 4: And. And a few seconds between times to have a quick look.

[00:32:32] Luke: Yeah.

[00:32:32] Participant 4: So this one, I should act on this one. I can forget about at all or delete this one or file this one for later so I can see what's going on there during the day. So it's convenience, just having it there and a little alert symbol, lets me know something's come in.

[00:32:49] Luke: Yeah.

[00:32:50] Participant 4: And I can have a look and because it's got the titles to them, you know who it's from and topic

[00:32:57] Luke: yeah.

[00:32:58] Participant 4: And time it was sent, that's like a little content sort of thing. So I can just see there's a number there, I can just flick through and oh this ones, one I should look at, and others I just ignore until the end of the day or delete them if they're advertising things, it's having that, like a contents list is quite helpful.

[00:33:15] Luke: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Um, I guess is it, uh, my, I was sort of wondering if, um, when you're at the computer that at the desktop computer there, you're always, um, ready to be reading the emails or at least ready to be receiving emails. Well, I mean, maybe not always, but it's a. How do I say it...,

[00:33:51] Participant 4: well, if it's convenience thing, so some days I'll be busy and I won't look at them.

[00:33:55] Luke: Yeah.

[00:33:56] Participant 4: All morningor all afternoon.

[00:33:58] Luke: Yeah.

[00:33:59] Participant 4: it's onlyat the end of the session that I'll have a look other times there's a bit more time in between and I can have a look.

[00:34:06] Luke: Yeah.

[00:34:07] Participant 4: So it is very much just depends on the day.

[00:34:10] Luke: I guess. I'm trying to get a sense of how much does the computer notify you? Um, while you're doing something else.

[00:34:18] And how much of it is you just looking when you ready to look at it?

[00:34:22] Participant 4: Yeah. Well, it gives a little sound signal. I know. Oh, there's another email arrived.

[00:34:26] Luke: Yep.

[00:34:26] Participant 4: So I can hear that while I'm working. So that's very useful. I know emails are there.

[00:34:32] Luke: Yeah.

[00:34:32] Participant 4: And then it's more me looking at it when I get a chance.

[00:34:35] Luke: Okay. And

[00:34:37] Participant 4: so the audio notification is helpful for as a first instance.

[00:34:43] Luke: Yeah.

[00:34:44] Participant 4: It's just one sounds signal.

[00:34:46] Luke: Yeah.

[00:34:46] Participant 4: So just email. It could be anything.

[00:34:48] Luke: Yeah.

[00:34:49] Participant 4: And then, um, it's really, we all get time to have a look too, you know, it's just up to my convenience then as to.

[00:34:56] Luke: Yeah. okay

[00:34:57] Participant 4: see what's going on?

[00:34:58] Luke: Does it put any pressure on you to go and have a look at it to find out what it is?

[00:35:02] Participant 4: No,

[00:35:03] Luke: no,

[00:35:04] Participant 4: no, I just ignore it.

[00:35:06] Luke: Is it, you said that some of the emails they're a bit more time sensitive, but they're not like urgent, I guess then that you don't need to go and check them immediately.

[00:35:15] Participant 4: Generally not. No.

[00:35:16] Luke: Yeah. So, um, would it be, I guess, I don't know how often you're likely to get an email that's really requires urgent attention I guess

[00:35:30] Participant 4: most of them are usually within a couple of days.

[00:35:33] Luke: Okay.

[00:35:34] Participant 4: So very short term.

[00:35:36] Luke: Yeah.

[00:35:37] Participant 4: not I can remember anyway, occasionally get them where they put their exclamation mark on and all the rest of it and say, yeah, you know, you need to act on this within, by the end of the week or within two days and you've only got....

[00:35:52] Luke: Yeah. Okay.

[00:35:53] Participant 4: One or two days notice.

[00:35:54] Luke: Yeah. Whereas it's um, I guess if it was a real like emergency or anything, they just call or use some other

[00:36:03] Participant 4: yeah. The dental association sent out text messages when it was COVID-19 as well. when that first started cause we got emails from them saying this new guidelines, these restrictions apply from tomorrow.

[00:36:16] Luke: Yeah.

[00:36:16] Participant 4: Okay.

[00:36:18] And they sent that by text as well, sort of covering all the different channels of communication to make sure dentists got the message ASAP.

[00:36:26] Luke: Yeah.

[00:36:28] Participant 4: Cause that was a very, the COVID-19 was actually an example of. Uh, urgent messages that were sent all the different ways to make sure like dentists did see it, but, um, I saw that on an email first before the phone.

[00:36:43] Luke: Yeah.

[00:36:43] Participant 4: Cause I'd sort of had a look at the phone later on and then oh yeah it's coming from them as well.

[00:36:47] Luke: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. cool.,

[00:36:51] Participant 4: actually the other one is um... Just thinking with some of the dental conferences. The big meetings, at congresses they'd have, uh, an app for the Congress. And, uh, that would notify you of it's more like a, sponsor's sort of doing things or something on in the reception area or somewhere else. Uh, and then there was just general conversation areas as well.

[00:37:28] So that's sort of more specific app for dental conferences is one that. you know,, I'd have to have my phone with me and that was one that I had to start looking at the phone more often to see what was going on during the conference. Um, so yeah that, that's true. theoir their conference apps sort of, uh, dental, the Australian dental Congress.

[00:37:46] That was something you need to look at regularly to get the up-to-date messages. You know, they'd say oh, for morning tea this is happening and it was the start a morning tea, or I'dget half an hours notice at the most, some of the things.

[00:38:01] Luke: Yeah. Okay. And was that, um, was that positive or negative?

[00:38:12] Participant 4: Uh, different because I said I haven't used that much that way, so I had to get a new habit of checking the phone.

[00:38:20] Luke: Yeah. Okay.

[00:38:21] Participant 4: It was very useful. It was good in that. Um, you didn't have to listen out for him speaker over the, you know, the, um, in the halls of the meetings sort of they have like a, a loud speaker thing usedto say alert everyone to such and such. so you didn't have to listen out for that, which is, you know, depending where you were and sound distortion, not so good. So that was very useful in that sense that you, a little beep on the phone or buzz and go something's going on there. The message had come through.

[00:38:48] Luke: Yeah. Okay.

[00:38:49] Participant 4: See the app.

[00:38:50] Luke: Yep.

[00:38:51] Participant 4: Um, so it was actually, it's quite good, quite handy.

[00:38:58] Luke: Did that, um, make you, did that make you think about getting messages from other people at all?

[00:39:08] Participant 4: Um, not really.

[00:39:11] Luke: Not really.

[00:39:13] Participant 4: Pretty slow to change habits.

[00:39:16] Luke: No, no. What so, you know,

[00:39:18] Participant 4: especially when you know you've got plenty of other things going on anyway.

[00:39:22] Luke: Yeah.

[00:39:22] Participant 4: keep busy enough.

[00:39:23] Luke: Yeah. Well, I think that, um, one of the things that has been interesting about this is it seems like everyone has a different way that they've tried, tried to solve the problems,

[00:39:36] Participant 4: just how you communicate and make use of the technology.

[00:39:40] Um, convenience is sort of, one of the things for me is just sort of what's what's handy there.

[00:39:45] Luke: Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, you know, what's convenient for your approach, um, might not be convenient for someone else.

[00:39:53] Participant 4: Yeah.

[00:39:54] Luke: But yeah. They might also not be aware of that. This is a possible approach.

[00:40:02] Participant 4: Yeah that's where it was interesting with the COVID-19 that the dental associate just used every channel they could.

[00:40:07] Luke: Yeah.

[00:40:07] Participant 4: Sent out different ways' to alert people.

[00:40:10] Luke: Hmm,

[00:40:11] Participant 4: You know, I mean, I don't do the social media. They, they got social media aspects, you know, they cover the whole lot, but I haven't gotten involved in Facebook groups and Instagrams and things, whatever else they got. they cover, They actually got all the social media things. I've not bothered with any of that.

[00:40:34] Luke: Yeah. Okay. Um, so a lot of people use instant messaging to have like a conversation, I guess. Um, but, but they try to make it, they try to do it, um, as much like a face to face conversation as possible in some senses. Um, what w what would it be like if you tried to do well?

[00:41:04] Participant 4: I just thought of zoom meetings. It's sort of where it's most useful.

[00:41:07] Luke: Yeah. Okay.

[00:41:08] Participant 4: Uh, teams meeting. So the, I mean, with [brother] and [sister] you know, my brother and sister, so with the looking after mum's estate, that was helpful. So had that weekly meeting going on for six months, more.. 12 months would have been 12 months and scaled it back just to once a month now.

[00:41:32] Luke: Yeah.

[00:41:33] Participant 4: But that's quite handy to have to have a conversation, get a bit more insight into what they're doing as well. So it'd be the social chitchat as well as organizing things. So that was, um, so having the, um, zoom, you know, the video call type thing is, and certainly, um, Very helpful from it, with that.

[00:41:55] Luke: Yeah. Okay. So yeah,

[00:41:57] Participant 4: even with the other calls have been the financial advisor, the accountants I've done it sort of with meetings, the, um, there's webinars where they do open up for questions. That's generally been just a checkbox, you know, sort of, sort of, um, rather text. Question's going in occasionally they'll have it where you can do by picture let's.

[00:42:26] There was one which one? It was where I use the Palm tree background. I did that for the tropics. So anyway, most of the conversations would have been the zoom or teams meetings sort of things.

[00:42:43] Luke: Yeah. Okay.

[00:42:45] Participant 4: Yeah. I haven't. Got involved in messaging is sort of conversational thing.

[00:42:53] Luke: Um, yeah. Okay. That's interesting. So it's uh, um, I guess so, so you'd prefer to at least have a audio, like a phone call or a video call.

[00:43:12] Participant 4: Yeah.

[00:43:12] Luke: Yeah. Much easier to have a conversation

[00:43:14] through that?

[00:43:15] Participant 4: Yeah.

[00:43:16] Luke: Um, is that just because of the, like, um, what, what if someone's like not available for a phone call, you just try and set a phone call up or,

[00:43:33] Participant 4: yeah, I'll just think of a time that's going to be convenient to ring or find out what's a good time.

[00:43:38] Luke: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's interesting. Yes. Yeah, I guess there's, uh, uh, I'd say probably fairly prevalent behavior where people will just have a conversation through the texts, uh, like instant messages.

[00:43:59] Participant 4: Yeah, yeah. Um, on an older demographic and

[00:44:02] Luke: yeah.

[00:44:03] Participant 4: It's what your habits are.

[00:44:04] Luke: Yeah. I mean, um, I guess, I guess I'll say it's the speed of using the keyboard is probably,

[00:44:17] Participant 4: definitely

[00:44:17] Luke: makes it harder to have a conversation.

[00:44:20] Participant 4: Well, I'd need to have glasses on and always have those with me. Yeah. All the different areas and, uh, yeah, that's true. Um, it is slower.

[00:44:28] Luke: Yeah. Well, they have the speech to text stuff. Um, have you made use of that at all?

[00:44:36] Participant 4: No.

[00:44:37] Luke: And it's interesting. I don't know. Uh, I think it's, I think it's used by Chinese speaking people because it's quicker than typing in Chinese to use the audio message where you record a little message and send it, um, has that maybe something you've seen at all or used at all?

[00:44:59] Participant 4: Um, um, I haven't, uh, not even recorded, uh, at workshop. So, for example, I have eight workshops out in the field talking about plants and things, uh, other workshops. So I've just do an audio recording, not actually as a conversation.

[00:45:21] Luke: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, well, it's um, well, you know, the, you know, the read receipts. Currently typing stuff, those things I was talking about before. Yeah. Do you think that they at all useful or do you think you'll make use

[00:45:43] of them at all?

[00:45:44] Participant 4: Yeah, no,it'd be handy to know, um, just have to see, as i said, find my way around the little apps,

[00:45:50] Luke: yeah. Okay. So it's not, they're not very clear at the moment for you.

[00:45:54] Participant 4: No, I got no idea about them. So I haven't, that's one of the things that slows me down with. You've gotta learn where things are set out and how to use them. So it is, there's a learning process involved. So when you've got something you're doing routinely and don't a lot of spare time, or can't see obvious, you may not be aware of what benefits there'd be, don't often go looking to see what are the features on those things.

[00:46:21] Luke: Yeah. Yup. Uh it's um, it's interesting. Cause, uh, that, yeah, there might be different one. Of them setting it out so that, uh, designing that so that it's a bit more obvious,

[00:46:39] Participant 4: the introductory tutorial thing for users. So it's very quick and easy sort of introduction could be handy and they've probably got, got little help things or things that they can find out.

[00:46:48] But often you've got to go to know what you're looking for, putting a key word or whatever, and yeah. Um, yeah, some little introductory. I don't know somewhere. I'd make it very user-friendly to introduce the features.

[00:47:04] Luke: Yeah.

[00:47:04] Participant 4: Whether it's a video or audio or audio visual part from a text reference manual.

[00:47:11] Luke: Yup. Yeah, no, that's true. But, um, or Snapchat is that another messaging service and on there they have messages where you send it and then after the person is. It'll disappear after a couple hours. Um, does that seem like it would be of interest or? I don't know. What does that sound like to you in terms of feature

[00:47:45] Participant 4: having messages disappears? Probably, uh, I tend to be someone who likes to archive things a bit, so I can refer back to things later on or. So I just have that tendency to want to archive things.

[00:48:02] Luke: Yeah.

[00:48:03] Participant 4: So I probably wouldn't find it all at you. Um, I mean for thew little simple messages, it's be fine. Occasionally you sort of wanna, um, contact details or if it's only someone you're contacting sporadically,might have forgotten some details about them and want to go back through your messages to see.

[00:48:26] Luke: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So it's um, yeah, I mean, that that's, that seems to be the two opposing things to this is that it's makes it harder to go back and see what has been said before. But sometimes that, um, makes it more like a conversation. Um, because it's not like a record of everything that's been said. Um,

[00:49:00] yeah, no, it's interesting. Um, another, another feature, I guess, on these things that, uh, is you can reply to a message. I don't know if that's, if you've come across that at all before where? On WhatsApp? You cansplit, go back through your message history and choose a specific message to reply to. Um, are you aware of that feature at all?

[00:49:33] Participant 4: So not just to current message. You're saying you go back to one a week ago and it, and then send a reply a week later.

[00:49:40] Luke: Yeah, well it'll um, yeah, it's, it's perhaps not the easiest feature to figure out, because I think you have to hold down on the message itself. And then what it'll do is it'll send that person like, so you hold down on it and then click the reply button and type your message in and hit send, and it'll pop up, um, at the very bottom of the chat, like a normal message, but it'll have a little quote with the original message that you're applying to.

[00:50:15] You know, replying to this message

[00:50:17] Participant 4: and that could be handy if you've missed a message, particularly.

[00:50:20] Luke: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Cause, uh, that's, that's one way where the messages are a bit different to a conversation because sometimes it might be hard to go back to a topic that you covered.

[00:50:33] Participant 4: Yeah. no, definitely that's where it's useful to have things recorded.

[00:50:38] See what- to review what was said. And

[00:50:41] Luke: yeah,

[00:50:42] Participant 4: who said what.

[00:50:44] Luke: Okay, well, um, I think that's pretty much everything, unless there's anything that you can think of. Um,

[00:50:56] Participant 4: Oh, no, that sort of covered everything. I got a few hints on, know what I find useful anyway, how I sort of make use of it. Um, yeah.

[00:51:10] Luke: Yeah. Uh, what, uh, I guess it just occured me, would it be useful if you sent someone a message and you found out then that they were busy, so they wouldn't be able to reply to it for a while?

[00:51:23] Participant 4: Yeah. If it's one where I've felt, it felt like I needed an urgent reply. So for timesensitive ones so that would be helpful.

[00:51:30] Luke: Yeah. Cool. Yeah.

[00:51:34] Participant 4: The way you do that, I suppose, is with exclamation marks at the moment. Some sort of alert on that's more emails, that's even just to get a signature or acknowledge receipt, that would be handy. Yeah. Just to let you know how urgent it is.

[00:51:56] Luke: Yeah. Okay. And if that, if that person was blocking notifications, would it be useful to have the option uh, send them a notification anyway.

[00:52:13] Participant 4: Yeah. Yeah. Just to, if they're blocking, if we've got some way of cuing things to say, these people are sending you messages. So when you're unblocking, then see, oh,, these people tried to send me messages.

[00:52:25] Luke: Yeah.

[00:52:25] Participant 4: That would be handy to know.

[00:52:28] Luke: Um, yeah, I guess so do you make use of the do not disturb mode or anything on the phone?

[00:52:37] Participant 4: No. Um,

[00:52:39] Luke: I just remembered I haven't,

[00:52:41] Participant 4: I um no, not something I've used I don't get that many messages.

[00:52:49] Luke: Yeah. Cool. Yeah. You said you didn't, you tended to get them just at the same time. Well, thanks for that.